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Gullible?

Started by ConfusedSkeptic, March 04, 2015, 07:08:16 AM

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ConfusedSkeptic

How would I know if I'm being gullible when assessing religious claims (Especially, I'd like to know the opinions of people who were atheist for all of their lives)? Plus, any advice on how not to be gullible (knowing that I come from a religious background)? Thanks.

SGOS

Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on March 04, 2015, 07:08:16 AM
How would I know if I'm being gullible when assessing religious claims (Especially, I'd like to know the opinions of people who were atheist for all of their lives)? Plus, any advice on how not to be gullible (knowing that I come from a religious background)? Thanks.
Learn what a logical process requires. Learn to recognize confirmation bias and the most common logical fallacies.   Test all claims against these criteria.  If claims do not stand up to these criteria, they may still be true, but you have no reason to believe they are true.  A gullible person believes anything (that he wants to believe), a skeptical person is selective, and believes only what he can believe.

Actually, logic isn't rocket science.  It's a rather simple set of rules, but all the rules, as simple as they are, must be followed.  If a claim is tested by 10 rules of logic and it fails one, you can't say, "Well, that's 90% logical, so I'm going to say it's true."

I remember lessons in critical thinking as early as grade school.  I didn't pay a hell of a lot of attention in grade school, but I remember feeling like the lessons in critical thinking were important.  The world around us is filled with both wonder and bullshit.  Watch the news, read the paper.  Think about what your politicians are telling you.  Above all remember that bullshit is not determined by whether you like it or not.  The same goes for truth.

Learn the difference between opinion and fact. 

Apply this way of thinking to everything and everyone, especially parents, leaders, and above all, priests, ministers, and clerics.  Nice people with good intentions spread bullshit too.  Put it all to the test.

stromboli

confirmation bias
http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

logical fallacies
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

The Illustrated book of bad arguments
https://bookofbadarguments.com/?view=allpages

The illustrated book of bad arguments is a good tutorial.

Enjoy.


SGOS

Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on March 04, 2015, 07:08:16 AM
How would I know if I'm being gullible when assessing religious claims (Especially, I'd like to know the opinions of people who were atheist for all of their lives)? Plus, any advice on how not to be gullible (knowing that I come from a religious background)? Thanks.
Gullibility is related to lack of critical thinking.  Focus on critical thinking.  The key is critical thinking, which for many atheists leads to their atheism, but it's not a given, and not all atheists arrive at atheism through critical thinking. 

Many theists can think critically, but seem to turn off that ability when it comes to their religion.  This is called "faith" and is much prided by theists, but faith is not something to be prideful about, and one would think hypocritical according to what the New Testament says about pride.

Light Craftsman

I highly recommend reading Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World. It includes his Baloney Detection Kit.

http://www.carlsagan.com/index_ideascontent.htm
You cannot have a rational discussion with someone who holds irrational beliefs.

Solitary

Quote from: stromboli on March 04, 2015, 09:14:14 AM
confirmation bias
http://skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

logical fallacies
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

The Illustrated book of bad arguments
https://bookofbadarguments.com/?view=allpages

The illustrated book of bad arguments is a good tutorial.

Enjoy.


Good job Strom! This is what should be taught in grade school. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

pr126

#6
A child's mind is imprinted with an ideology (religion) by parents, peers.
Reenforced with constant repetition, and fear. Mostly fear. 

In Islam's case it is the daily communal prayers, fear of Allah, fear of eternal hellfire and probable punishment from family, peers, or even the state which does not allow dissent.

I do not think as gullible, firstly because it is programming, living with a religious enviroment you don't know any better. Therefore Islam is the norm.

Once you are aware that there is another way, it takes a long time and a lot of courage to overcome your programming, and reject the ideology which is no longer acceptable to you.

Asking questions, examining the religion in your case will be a lonely affair as parents, peers, friends cannot be involved as apostasy in Islam is dangerous.

If you want to leave Islam, prepare yourself for a long and painful time.

It can be done, there are several websites for ex Muslims, join them, as questions, examine, find out about the real Islam, the prophet, and how they managed to leave Islam.

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/People_Who_Left_Islam

http://www.islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/index.html

http://formermuslimsunited.org/apostasy-from-islam/

Remember, it is a long sometimes painful road, but you have to persevere.
And most important, be careful.

You wrote in your first post:

QuoteOn the one hand, I'm scared to learn more about Islam. What if I found that that Islam is the true religion? Then what? I'd feel more arrogant for not following the rules, and, therefore, I'd feel guiltier than I ever did. I don't want that.

I say the more you find out about Islam, the better. Do it!
Many apostates started by examining the Quran and hadiths, and what they found has made their minds up that Islam cannot be true.

Read http://alisina.org/?p=5036

I hope this will be of some help. 






stromboli

More knowledge is better than less knowledge. I was a Mormon. I'm no longer a Mormon because I made an OBJECTIVE study of the religion. That is the key. This is my starting point for my research.

If something is true, it should meet any objective test or research it is subject to.
If you in studying find anything false about your study subject, it calls into question everything else about it.

Religion is about absolutes: there is a god or isn't a god. He is by his own declaration perfect. If that god does not meet the tests of truth, consistency, historically verifiable, verifiable by evidence of claims of supernatural abilities and so on, then you can conclude there is no god.

Something that is supernatural is by definition beyond human understanding. However, we CAN test claims of supernatural actions in the real world. Does god answer prayers? Can we prove it? Faith healing? Demonstrable proof of miracles that can't be explained by science or known information? All the so-called "evidence" of a god's existence has either been disproved or failed.

Lastly, the absence of any evidence of a god's existence means belief by faith alone. I use the fishing analogy: If you fish at a pond and catch no fish, go swimming and see no fish, dive under and see no evidence of a fish or any food that could support a fish living there, you can conclude there are no fish in the pond.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If there is no evidence, you can safely conclude there is no god.


Solitary

QuoteAbsence of evidence is evidence of absence. If there is no evidence, you can safely conclude there is no god.

I like that! Never heard it before. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Mike Cl

Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on March 04, 2015, 07:08:16 AM
How would I know if I'm being gullible when assessing religious claims (Especially, I'd like to know the opinions of people who were atheist for all of their lives)? Plus, any advice on how not to be gullible (knowing that I come from a religious background)? Thanks.
As a general rule don't take anything anybody says at face value.  Research it yourself.  Look for both the pro and the con of whatever you want to know about.  That way you can have input from both sides and then you can see what makes the most sense to you.  Heck, you may reject either argument and create one made up of both parts.  Or you may do some deep research and branch out farther.  This may seem like a pain-in-the-butt at first, but with practice it will become easier and faster.  Just remember it is always your right to choose what to believe.  In fact, you are the only one who can choose.
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

ConfusedSkeptic

Thanks all for your responses and resources.

Let me start off by asking a question that you might find stupid: On what basis should I use logic and critical thinking as the standards for evaluating claims? I'm trying to predict how people might refute my arguments. They might say: You're reasoning is flawed to begin with.

SGOS:

QuoteIf claims do not stand up to these criteria, they may still be true, but you have no reason to believe they are true.

Let me get this straight. A claim can be true, but it can be a logical fallacy as well? Can you provide an example?

pr126:

QuoteReenforced with constant repetition, and fear. Mostly fear.

I agree. A few months ago, I heard my uncle tell his daughter (who's 3 or 4 years old): Remember what I've told you about people who lie? They go to hell.

QuoteI do not think as gullible, firstly because it is programming, living with a religious enviroment you don't know any better.

Are you saying that religious people didn't get the chance to be gullible?

stromboli:

In the video, Penn Jillette said: "And I feel a little bit disingenuous with that answer because I don't think I any longer want to believe in God". Is that an emotional reason to reject God? Because he continued by quoting Christopher Hitchens by saying: "Wanting there to be a God is like wanting to live in North Korea. To give away all your freedom". I certainly feel the same way, but feeling this way doesn't mean that reality might not as well be a divine North Korea. Therefore, one shouldn't accept such statements as evidence, or reasons, against God when assessing His existence. Right?

QuoteI'm no longer a Mormon because I made an OBJECTIVE study of the religion.

How do I know if I'm being objective in my analysis? I mean, I think that we're all biased to some extent. For me, living a religious life would make me depressed, so I'd like atheism to be true. I recognize that my preferences have nothing to do with reality and the truth, but that's just how I feel right now.

QuoteDemonstrable proof of miracles that can't be explained by science or known information?

So, if something can't be explained, scientifically or logically, is that proof, or evidence, for God?


SGOS

Quote from: ConfusedSkeptic on March 05, 2015, 01:14:54 PM
Let me get this straight. A claim can be true, but it can be a logical fallacy as well? Can you provide an example?

No, not off the top of my head, but I could explain how it could happen.  Let's say in the year 200 AD a cobbler announced that the Earth was a sphere.  He defended this claim with the following argument:

A sphere is the most perfect shape.
God is perfection.
God created the Earth.
Therefore, the Earth must be a sphere.

It's true the Earth is a sphere, but the statements in the above argument suffer from unfounded assumptions and non-sequitur.  The cobbler arrived at the right answer, but used faulty logic.  The fact that he ends up being correct about the shape of the Earth is dumb luck, and has nothing to do with his reasoning.


pr126

#13
All gods, all religions ever existed are inventions of the human mind. No exceptions.


Allah was a pagan rock god of the Kaaba, until Muhammad promoted it to be his Lord of the Universe glove puppet.

Narrated Aisha
"I feel that your Lord hastens in fulfilling your wishes and desires."
Sahih Bukhari 6:60:311

@ ConfusedSceptic:

Learn the rituals and customs of the pagan Arabs which were practiced hundreds of years before Muhammad's Islam, and see how many of those were kept and are still done today by Muslims.

Pagan Origins of Islam


There are nearly 300 videos from A Q Rasooli

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KepxQ7yvJXc