All of out actions are selfish

[Berati]

Fruitless in that each of us creates our own universe and it is from this internal universal lens that we view the 'real' world.  We are each unique.  With that in mind, I would say that selfless acts would be one's concerted effort to figure out what another person's view is and then to try and meet and satisfy that view--as best one can.  Doing what one considers selfless acts is worthy to strive for, even if one is kidding one's self and one knows it.  It is like smiling.  It has been shown that even when one feels terrible, forcing a smile will make you feel better.  Pay-it-forward is a good thing to do--even if it is done for 'selfish' reasons.  Makes the 'group' stronger.

Well I agree, but I wasn't saying that selfless acts are fruitless, I was saying that discussions about whether the acts are really selfless or not are fruitless.

[Jason78]

We do things because:
a. It benefits us physically (Food, Sleep, etc.)
b. It makes us feel good (Listen to music, Fighting, etc.)
c. It is the "Right" thing to do (Stop a fight, Give to homeless, etc.)

This list is incomplete.

[dtq123]

And you think sweeping generalizations aren't inherently fallacious?

This is a generalization we are discussing. Not all generalizations are wrong. I.e. Apples are edible. Some aren't, but it's safe to assume it is.

Well I agree, but I wasn't saying that selfless acts are fruitless, I was saying that discussions about whether the acts are really selfless or not are fruitless.

Once we accept that our actions are selfish, we begin to understand ourselves better by thinking of how this benefits ourselves, and thus points to "Selfish Altruism" I was mentioning. It helps us see the world as it is, and makes us less prone to delusions of undying love or a perfect being.

This list is incomplete.

I know. I just really couldn't make up anything else at the time. I attempted to summerize what was in my head into a couple of quick sentences, my bad.

[PickelledEggs]

You are literally comparing apples to selfishness.

They are two completely different things.


Sent from your mom.

[dtq123]

You are literally comparing apples to selfishness.

They are two completely different things.

I am using that comparison because both are real, but I can see why you would say that.

Here's a better one; Murder is not good. There may be times that murder must be achieved to save others, but then others will try to avenge the fallen and causes an infinite regression of murder to avenge the fallen.

Selfishness is a core trait to us. There my be times that things seem altruistic, but often times our own moral codes and self satisfaction for doing an action is selfishness on it's own. If we try to find a specific example of true altruism, it would most likely lead to another infinite regression of one situation after another.

[PickelledEggs]

I am using that comparison because both are real, but I can see why you would say that.

Here's a better one; Murder is not good. There may be times that murder must be achieved to save others, but then others will try to avenge the fallen and causes an infinite regression of murder to avenge the fallen.

Selfishness is a core trait to us. There my be times that things seem altruistic, but often times our own moral codes and self satisfaction for doing an action is selfishness on it's own. If we try to find a specific example of true altruism, it would most likely lead to another infinite regression of one situation after another.

I guess I just fail to see the connection between the sets of things you are comparing... or rather you are failing to see the disconnection.

[dtq123]

Can you explain for me why my examples don't work?

[Berati]

Once we accept that our actions are selfish, we begin to understand ourselves better by thinking of how this benefits ourselves, and thus points to "Selfish Altruism" I was mentioning. It helps us see the world as it is, and makes us less prone to delusions of undying love or a perfect being.

You didn't address my point that you cannot know the internal motivations of anyone else.
Your declaration that all our actions are selfish is a bald assertion so I simply do not accept what you believe we should all accept.

I was saying that whether acts are considered selfless or not doesn't affect the outcome. That's why this discussion, like discussions concerning determinism/freewill are fruitless. Your bald assertion that all actions are selfish is not falsifiable just like freewill/determinism is not falsifiable.
Even those who are positive we lack freewill continue to live their lives as though we do.
Even someone who is positive all our acts are selfish will still gain benefit from someone who does them a kindness and says it was selfless.

So, I see the discussion as fruitless even though you may be right, because you may be wrong.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Apples are edible for a relatively short period of time in their life.

[dtq123]

Apples are edible for a relatively short period of time in their life.

We often don't recognize rotten apples as normal apples

You didn't address my point that you cannot know the internal motivations of anyone else.
Your declaration that all our actions are selfish is a bald assertion so I simply do not accept what you believe we should all accept.

I was saying that whether acts are considered selfless or not doesn't affect the outcome. That's why this discussion, like discussions concerning determinism/freewill are fruitless. Your bald assertion that all actions are selfish is not falsifiable just like freewill/determinism is not falsifiable.
Even those who are positive we lack freewill continue to live their lives as though we do.
Even someone who is positive all our acts are selfish will still gain benefit from someone who does them a kindness and says it was selfless.

So, I see the discussion as fruitless even though you may be right, because you may be wrong.

So ought I give up in this area of philosophy? And if my claims are not falsifiable after using reasoning, shouldn't that make my statements true?

[Sal1981]

So ought I give up in this area of philosophy? And if my claims are not falsifiable after using reasoning, shouldn't that make my statements true?

I'm pretty sure Berati is alluding to the fact that such statements about selflessness cannot be falsified, i.e. there is no way to show that the statement which you can test it against which would make it false.

Google "falsifiability".

[Gawdzilla Sama]

We often don't recognize rotten apples as normal apples

Now you qualify. Shall you go on and say "all normal apples on this table in front of me"?

[Berati]

So ought I give up in this area of philosophy? And if my claims are not falsifiable after using reasoning, shouldn't that make my statements true?

You're free to investigate whatever area of philosophy you choose. I simply felt it important to point out the non falsifiable nature of this assertion. No personal slight is intended.

Falsifiability separates philosophy from science so any statement that can't be falsified may be true or it may be false, there is just no way to prove it. i.e solipsism, which is a legitimate philosophical position that I find leads to fruitless discussions.

[Mike Cl]

Discussions such as these are without a doubt fruitless in the eyes of science.  But that makes them far from worthless!  I love these discussions because they afford me a chance to look inside myself and examine my our reasons, feelings and thoughts about that particular topic--selfishness, this time.  I cannot test in a scientific way (or any way this could be testable by another) if I am selfish in various situations.  When I give change back to a clerk who by accident gave me too much, how does that make me feel?  It feels good; that I did the moral thing (according to my own personal morals).  Is that selfish--I guess it is when defined in a certain way.  So, I guess I'm selfish, for that act makes me feel good.  But does that make it 'bad'?  No, for it depends upon how one defines selfish.  I guess I tend to turn the self argument into a decision based on whether or not the action is healthy or unhealthy for me.  I can see where everything (see in a philosophical way), every action I take is selfish.  But are those actions healthy or unhealthy.  If healthy, I try to keep doing it.  Unhealthy, I try to stop.  And those labels are all internal labels, and can be proven only to myself, and only by myself.  But proven they can be, for I really do create the universe in which I live--and so do you.  But I cannot use science to prove that in the 'real' world.  And understand I'd rather have science prove something to me in any or every instance.  So, I tend to use the scientific method for my internal 'proofs'--at least, as best I can.

[dtq123]

Guess you'll love what I'll have to post on philosophy for a long time :3