"I Still Believe Homosexuality is a choice..."

Started by Aletheia, December 04, 2014, 03:54:27 AM

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Baruch

Societies decide what they can or can't tolerate.  They may use or abuse science in making their decisions.  This is done in a political context, so you can bet that any decision made (such as minimum age of consent) is crappy at best, and will only be good on random variables.  The US is moving from one crappy standard to another crappy standard, for example.  I happen to like the new crappy standard better.  Puritanism makes for terrible politics.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Blackleaf

Quote from: shadyace on May 02, 2016, 09:51:59 PM
Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way.

If homosexuality is not a choice why hasn't there been proof in some sort (even brain activity) to show a difference?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, at work and cannot research anything at the moment.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Actually, there are physical differences in the brains of people who are homosexual and those who are heterosexual. I don't remember the specifics, but this has come up multiple times in my psychology courses. Certain brain structures tend to be a different size in people who are homosexual, which is evidence of a difference in "programming."
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

trdsf

Quote from: shadyace on May 02, 2016, 09:51:59 PM
Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way.

If homosexuality is not a choice why hasn't there been proof in some sort (even brain activity) to show a difference?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, at work and cannot research anything at the moment.
I would like to advise you that you need to find better comparisons.  You have now, in two different posts, compared homosexuality to criminal acts of one degree or another.

I think it's simple to demonstrate: On the assumption that you're heterosexual, when did you decide to be heterosexual?  Can you decide to be homosexual for a week, a month, a year?

If you didn't decide to be heterosexual, and can't/won't decide to be homosexual, that largely answers it right there.  Not a choice.  If it's a choice for gays, it must also be a choice for straights.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Blackleaf

Quote from: trdsf on May 03, 2016, 10:59:04 PM
I would like to advise you that you need to find better comparisons.  You have now, in two different posts, compared homosexuality to criminal acts of one degree or another.

I think it's simple to demonstrate: On the assumption that you're heterosexual, when did you decide to be heterosexual?  Can you decide to be homosexual for a week, a month, a year?

If you didn't decide to be heterosexual, and can't/won't decide to be homosexual, that largely answers it right there.  Not a choice.  If it's a choice for gays, it must also be a choice for straights.

To be fair, there are biological contributions to all kinds of behavior, both legal and criminal. However, it is an error to treat heterosexuality as the default and lump together all other types of sexuality as deviant behaviors.
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

shadyace

Quote from: trdsf on May 03, 2016, 10:59:04 PM
I would like to advise you that you need to find better comparisons.  You have now, in two different posts, compared homosexuality to criminal acts of one degree or another.

I think it's simple to demonstrate: On the assumption that you're heterosexual, when did you decide to be heterosexual?  Can you decide to be homosexual for a week, a month, a year?

If you didn't decide to be heterosexual, and can't/won't decide to be homosexual, that largely answers it right there.  Not a choice.  If it's a choice for gays, it must also be a choice for straights.

https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

Homosexuality is a crime according to these countries listed in the link, so I believe my comparison is fair

Oh look  http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/07/16/bestiality-is-legal-in-the-same-states-that-ban-same-sex-marriage/ certain parts of America where bestiality is not a criminal act.


Please note
"the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough.  There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change."
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/





The Skeletal Atheist

Quote from: shadyace on May 04, 2016, 07:46:41 AM
https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

Homosexuality is a crime according to these countries listed in the link, so I believe my comparison is fair

Oh look  http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/07/16/bestiality-is-legal-in-the-same-states-that-ban-same-sex-marriage/ certain parts of America where bestiality is not a criminal act.


Please note
"the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough.  There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change."
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/





It's a crime in some places, that is true.

Now, please tell me why it's a crime. Why should it be criminal for consenting adults to engage in a sexual act? Before you say that homosexuals can't reproduce, I ask you to consider that the amount of heterosexuals around invalidates that concern.

Some people need to be beaten with a smart stick.

Kein Mehrheit Fur Die Mitleid!

Kein Mitlied F�r Die Mehrheit!

Blackleaf

Quote from: shadyace on May 04, 2016, 07:46:41 AMPlease note
"the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough.  There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change."
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/

Many mental illnesses are not scientifically validated. The ones that are included in the most recent version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) have criteria that are rather arbitrary (must have 5/9 of ___). Likely the reason that homosexuality was removed from the DSM was because it lacked one of the criteria that underlied almost every mental disorder: "causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, academic, occupational, or other areas of functioning."
"Oh, wearisome condition of humanity,
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity,
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
--Fulke Greville--

trdsf

Quote from: shadyace on May 04, 2016, 07:46:41 AM
https://76crimes.com/76-countries-where-homosexuality-is-illegal/

Homosexuality is a crime according to these countries listed in the link, so I believe my comparison is fair

Oh look  http://www.allthingscrimeblog.com/2013/07/16/bestiality-is-legal-in-the-same-states-that-ban-same-sex-marriage/ certain parts of America where bestiality is not a criminal act.


Please note
"the removal of homosexuality from the list of mental illnesses was not triggered by some scientific breakthrough.  There was no new fact or set of facts that stimulated this major change."
http://behaviorismandmentalhealth.com/2011/10/08/homosexuality-the-mental-illness-that-went-away/

No, it is not.  You first used non-consensual sex crimes as the comparison base, and then moved on to theft and murder.  Whether or not other nations make it illegal is irrelevant.  In Saudi Arabia it's illegal to drink.  Will you then compare anyone who has an alcoholic beverage to rapists and murderers?

Again, you need to find much more relevant comparisons.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

shadyace

Quote from: trdsf on May 04, 2016, 06:53:33 PM
No, it is not.  You first used non-consensual sex crimes as the comparison base, and then moved on to theft and murder.  Whether or not other nations make it illegal is irrelevant.  In Saudi Arabia it's illegal to drink.  Will you then compare anyone who has an alcoholic beverage to rapists and murderers?

Again, you need to find much more relevant comparisons.


"Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way."


Read properly and stop changing other's words to suit your own agenda. Until then good day.

trdsf

Quote from: shadyace on May 04, 2016, 07:08:58 PM

"Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way."


Read properly and stop changing other's words to suit your own agenda. Until then good day.
I haven't changed one word you've said.  Your comparisons, not mine.  You're still making comparisons to the clinically abnormal (at best) rather than the merely different.

You also never did address my challenge to "choose" an orientation different than your current one.  Or the point about laws.

If you really don't see the issue here, honestly, you have a serious perspective issue, and the only thing that you've convinced me of is that there's a layer of homophobia lurking within you somewhere.
"My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total, and I am not going to sit here and be an idle spectator to the diminution, the subversion, the destruction of the Constitution." -- Barbara Jordan

Baruch

What is the purpose of society?  What is the purpose of government?  What is the purpose of law?  Why are some things illegal and others are not?

These are very big questions, that impact the OP ... as to what should or should not be done about homosexuality.

Merely having parasitical arrangements with your fellow humans, is not a good society.  Merely having an authoritarian organization tell you what do do, is not a good government.  Merely using law to enforce bigotry and discrimination and sadism ... is not good law.  Find what is good, and then it will be clear if existing laws make sense or not.  Starting at the opposite end, with existing non-sense will only confuse you.
Ha’át’íísh baa naniná?
Azee’ Å,a’ish nanídį́į́h?
Táadoo ánít’iní.
What are you doing?
Are you taking any medications?
Don't do that.

Mike Cl

Quote from: shadyace on May 04, 2016, 07:08:58 PM



The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way."

Am I reading this statement to mean that homosexuality is not natural?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?<br />Then he is not omnipotent,<br />Is he able but not willing?<br />Then whence cometh evil?<br />Is he neither able or willing?<br />Then why call him god?

Shukhov

Quote from: Mike Cl on May 04, 2016, 08:44:43 PM
Am I reading this statement to mean that homosexuality is not natural?

It would appear so but I could be wrong. If I'm right it is false statement - humans are part of nature so homosexuality is natural. No need to mention that it happens among other animals too.
"Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

George Santayana.

"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth".

Mikhail Bakunin.

widdershins

#253
Quote from: shadyace on May 04, 2016, 07:08:58 PM

"Shoplifting and homicide are crimes and generally the results of social/economical factors.

The things I've mentioned are better off being considered developing from mental illness as it is not natural in any way."


Read properly and stop changing other's words to suit your own agenda. Until then good day.
Man, am I glad that I am not going to get a chance to know you before you're banned for being a bigoted asshat.

On a side note, I assume that if I find a single country where Christianity is illegal you would find it fair for me to compare Christians to horse rapists, right?  It is, after all, your argument style.
This sentence is a lie...

Absurd Atheist

Quote from: shadyace on May 02, 2016, 04:53:35 PM

Sorry I should have been more clear, I'm referring to the attraction not the said acts.

I believe the same argument applies their attraction is still consensual as it's not considered possible for children, animals or dead people to give such consent. Simultaneously I don't think people are punished for their sexual attraction unless they act on it, or turn themselves in for fear that they'll act on it. The entire issue is the weight of consent between living human adults. As well as natural genetics.
"To have faith is to lose your mind and to win God."
-The Sickness unto Death - 1849