What is wrong with the Christian message?

[mediumaevum]

Regardless of whether the Christian deity should be taken as a literal figure who has a long white beard and lives in the sky, or as a metaphorical figure however that may be intepreted, I need some answers as to how the Christian message of non-violence and forgiveness and charity to the weak, is wrong.

From a (Social)-Darwinian perspective, I see the problems. But I don't think most atheists are social-darwinists.
Atheists are not more evil than christians. In-fact, I believe that many Christians are christians by fear or by promises of rewards, rather than because they truely think it is the right message that
the gospels (both canonized and non-canonized) brings with it.

For example, many christians only believe in the messages/gospels because they either fear "God's wrath" or wants "God's rewards".
Many atheists however, certainly not all of them though, believe in forgiveness and non-violence and charity to the weak too, but because they truely believe it is the right thing.

If I was an atheist, and a Christian asked me "how can you be an atheist, you must be evil because you don't forgive and wants violence and never give to charity or otherwise help the weak"
I would reply:

What kind of human are you, since you need a deity to tell you good from evil, right from wrong?
And do you TRUELY forgive a person for his or her misdeeds or do you only pretend to do so, in order to please your deity?

I'd want to see a Christian reaction to such a response.

With that said, I believe the core messages of forgiveness, non-violence, peace and welfare which the gospels speak of, is important. Regardless of the existence of a deity.

[Munch]

The simple fact is, the 'message' you call it as a christian isn't actually a shared sense of goodness, because when you delve into the messages contained in christian teachings, you end up finding so many interpreted meanings that contradict themselves in every way possible.

Take for example the story of sodom and gomorrah, which is a story aimed and giving homophobes something to use against gay people because there gawd told them gays are bad, and yet in the same book it teaches you that incest and inbreeding is good, such as with adam and eve, and even in the story of sodom and gomorrah is has what the bible discribes as a group of homosexuals raping and killing a woman, which makes perfect fucking sense doesnt it?

Thats just one example of the bullshit your book teaches, and because of the many inconsistent messages and contradictions in the bible, it has all thats needed for evil men claiming to be men of your god to use as there justified means for killing, raping, inbreeding and violence against its own.

What I'm saying is, this belief that you can only be a good man if you follow the bible is BULLSHIT, you are not taught morals and virtues because of the bible, you are taught how to be a good person by life experiences and being around actual moral and decent people.

[Poison Tree]

With that said, I believe the core messages of forgiveness, non-violence, peace and welfare which the gospels speak of, is important. Regardless of the existence of a deity.

As long as it is not taken to insane lengths (we forgive you and would never violently resist, mr Hitler) I'd agree with you--but I don't think that promoting those good things excuses lying. I've certainly got nothing against Christians who focus on these issues, or even those who basically live their (religious) lives without using their religion as an excuse to fuck with people.

However, the issues you listed do not appear to be the core of Christianity as it is practiced (in America, at least). If you look at the issues that get religious trappings it tend to be the culture wars: abortion, traditional marriage, ect. I'd go so far as to say that the opposition to welfare is couched in religious terms much more than support for it.

[Atheon]

"Obey these rigid, nonsensical rules without question or you will burn in hell for eternity."*

That's what's wrong with the Christian message.

(*Also known as "On your knees and worship Jeeze.")

[aitm]

I'd want to see a Christian reaction to such a response.

pssst......wrong forum.

[mediumaevum]

The simple fact is, the 'message' you call it as a christian isn't actually a shared sense of goodness, because when you delve into the messages contained in christian teachings, you end up finding so many interpreted meanings that contradict themselves in every way possible.

Take for example the story of sodom and gomorrah, which is a story aimed and giving homophobes something to use against gay people because there gawd told them gays are bad, and yet in the same book it teaches you that incest and inbreeding is good, such as with adam and eve, and even in the story of sodom and gomorrah is has what the bible discribes as a group of homosexuals raping and killing a woman, which makes perfect fucking sense doesnt it?

Thats just one example of the bullshit your book teaches, and because of the many inconsistent messages and contradictions in the bible, it has all thats needed for evil men claiming to be men of your god to use as there justified means for killing, raping, inbreeding and violence against its own.

What I'm saying is, this belief that you can only be a good man if you follow the bible is BULLSHIT, you are not taught morals and virtues because of the bible, you are taught how to be a good person by life experiences and being around actual moral and decent people.

I haven't read enough about the Old Testament writings, but from what I understand, Christians (I am not a christian myself my beliefs are not to be cathegorized into anything) use the New Testament, and the Old Testament is only relevant as to describe the story of the people that Jesus came from. Christians recognize Jesus as a jew, who was their messiah and whom through Paul the Apostle, was made the idol worth worshipping for non-jews too, hence establishing a new religion called Christianity (from Cristos, greek word for the hebrew Messiah meaning liberator).

From my understanding of the theology of the Bible (in regard to Christians, not jews) the Old Testament version of God is wrong, and Jesus has to clarify. The inconsistencies and the angry god of the old testament, is a wrong portrayl of God, according to christian theology of the new testament (which is the message in the new testament).

The New Testament too has inconsitencies, true. But these inconsistencies are irrelevant to the point. It's like the traditional joke about four men on a raft that continously gets interrupted by the listerners who asks questions to who they where, why and how they came to be there and so on. The joke never gets told. For example, for the story of Jesus feeding poor people, it is irrelevant wether there were 500 fish or 500 people or whatever. The point is: He feeds them, and gets popular for his mercy and clerverness.

I think it is sad that the Bible is so poorly edited when the early Christians canonized the gospels. They had all opportunities to get rid of the inconsistencies. Also, I think it is sad that kings and emperors supported radicals who wanted to eradicate and burn other texts deemed "heretical", although I think it was in order to do just that: Make consistencies in the text. But to use the Bible and a man-made scripted story as basis for law making, is stupid and I don't think Jesus or Paul the Apostle wanted that either.

[Munch]

Simply put, there are so many inconsistencies in the bible to make its stories meaningful, because for whatever good moral it might have, it always contradicts itself.

Real moral lessons come from the people teaching them, not the material they use to teach it.

[Desdinova]

From my understanding of the theology of the Bible (in regard to Christians, not jews) the Old Testament version of God is wrong, and Jesus has to clarify. The inconsistencies and the angry god of the old testament, is a wrong portrayl of God, according to christian theology of the new testament (which is the message in the new testament).

You would think that the all knowing, all powerful Yahweh would make his message crystal clear to his chosen people.  But no, he had second thoughts about all those silly rules the Jews had to follow.  So what did he do?  He sent his son, or himself, or some combination thereof, to earth to wipe away everyone's sins so that as long as you believe in Him ( and send your check or money order to the address below, typically somewhere in Texas) you can live forever, or suffer for eternity in a lake of fire.   

[mediumaevum]

Simply put, there are so many inconsistencies in the bible to make its stories meaningful, because for whatever good moral it might have, it always contradicts itself.

Real moral lessons come from the people teaching them, not the material they use to teach it.

But the Bible contains exactly that. It is, as the word "Bible" means: BookS! With an S in the end, meaning it contains more than one book.

Which implies that the Bible is a container of different versions of the same story. Or different stories of the same person(s) if you will.

It is completely nonsense to say "The bible is wrong" without clarifying which book you are refering to.
Is it Luke that is wrong? Is it Mark? Is it the letters written by Paul the Apostle? Which sayings are wrong?

Some of them are right, and some of them are wrong, some are right on some matters and wrong on others.

[Mr.Obvious]

Apart from some already raised, good points, I find three things in particular very disturbing about the Christian message.

First off: The need to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour in order to be saved.
Now not all Christians believe Christ to be the only way to get into heaven and that you must accept him in your lifetime in order avoid hell, but a fair lot do. And it is what the New Testament claims through numerous passages. The principle of making your conviction on such a thing, rather than your actions in life, be what determines your 'reward' in the afterlife is unfair and arbitrary. If there were an afterlife, it'd be immoral in my book to let your thoughts, over which you have no real control, determine how you spend eternity.

Secondly: The idea of infinite punishment and the concept of hell.
It is in essence unfair to punish someone for infinite time, for example to burn them in a lake of fire, for a finite crime.

Thirdly: The scapegoating.
Looked at closely; the Christian fate promotes running away from your own misdoings. If person A wrongs person B he need only confess his sins to a third party; be it a priest/reverend and/or God to get forgiven. Not only that, but it glorifies scapegoating by implying that Jesus can carry our sins. The idea is that we've all sinned before God and that because of Christ's sacrifice we need not suffer the consequences of this. Sorry, but if I do something wrong I must bear the responsibility for that. I can't 'wash' away my sins nor my past, no matter how much Christianity says I can.

Now there are other problems I have with the Christian message such as institutionalized shaming, how it belittles the human capacity and accomplishments, makes light of the human understanding of morality, the concept of (original) sin, ... But those three stand out.

[Mr.Obvious]

Some of them are right, and some of them are wrong, some are right on some matters and wrong on others.

Or all are wrong. We know at the very least most must be after all.

[Desdinova]

But the Bible contains exactly that. It is, as the word "Bible" means: BookS! With an S in the end, meaning it contains more than one book.

Which implies that the Bible is a container of different versions of the same story. Or different stories of the same person(s) if you will.

It is completely nonsense to say "The bible is wrong" without clarifying which book you are refering to.
Is it Luke that is wrong? Is it Mark? Is it the letters written by Paul the Apostle? Which sayings are wrong?

Some of them are right, and some of them are wrong, some are right on some matters and wrong on others.

Yes, but the Bible is to be taken as a whole is it not?  If not then why not have two books, "The Bible: Bedtime Stories for the Damned" and "The Bible: True Stories from the Age of Goat Herding".

[mediumaevum]

You would think that the all knowing, all powerful Yahweh would make his message crystal clear to his chosen people.  But no, he had second thoughts about all those silly rules the Jews had to follow.  So what did he do?  He sent his son, or himself, or some combination thereof, to earth to wipe away everyone's sins so that as long as you believe in Him ( and send your check or money order to the address below, typically somewhere in Texas) you can live forever, or suffer for eternity in a lake of fire.   

One version:

Yahwe already made his message clear in the first place. Man did not follow, and the tried again. It worked, for a little while, then man did not want to follow again.
He tried this many times. Then he send his son, who was himself incarnated as a human, and forgave the entire world for disobeying him so many times.
Still not working. Reason? He created free will too, and don't want to mess with that, rather he wants man to follow his message if they want to or suffer the natural consequences if they don't.
Which is hell on earth, as it already is.

This version or interpretation of the bible, tells that the current world we live in IS hell. And we have to stop sinning, then the natural consequences of our actions will logically improve our lives.
It's not God's fault humans fails, except for the fact that he COULD have chosen to create us without free will. But then we wouldn't know good from evil, because that is what free will implies. We have a choice in our lives to choose wether or not to obey our master.

Another version:
The Bible is man-made and so is the message of God.
It is what people THINK the message of God is. They are guessing. The Old Testament was one guess. The New Testament was another. And the Quran is a third guess. The Buddhists is yet a completely other guess, and atheism is no guess.

[the_antithesis]

... I need some answers as to how the Christian message of non-violence and forgiveness and charity to the weak, is wrong.

That's not the christian message. They say that's the message, but the real christian message is intolerance and murdering those who do not conform.

Look at what they do, not what they say.

That goes double for islam.

[mediumaevum]

Yes, but the Bible is to be taken as a whole is it not?  If not then why not have two books, "The Bible: Bedtime Stories for the Damned" and "The Bible: True Stories from the Age of Goat Herding".

Its for you to decide which version applies best for your life (if you choose to be a bible-believer)
You can also pick and choose from the various versions of the Old Testament scriptures or the various gospels.