Choose to Believe

[Poison Tree]

I go back and forth on the question.

When I was a believer I never chose to be one--though I also never chose to be baptized. I was raised as one. One sister, two patents, four grandparents, (at that time) three aunts and two of their husbands,  eventually three cousins, essentially everyone at every (religions) school I went to were all the same religions denomination. There really wasn't any choice about it.

When I stopped believing I didn't exactly choose either. I never said "today I'm going to stop believing"; I realized "I haven't truly believed for some time". Did I choose to question things that believers choose not to question, to think about things they ignore? Yes, or maybe no and I simply found myself questioning and thinking without actually choosing to do so. I didn't choose not to have religious/spiritual experiences (hearing the voice of god/feeling his guiding hand) but maybe I had experiences that others would have described in those terms but I chose to explain them differently--I distinctly remember lying about having one during a car accident because I thought one should have happened to a good believer and maybe, if I were a different person (not something I could chose to be) I could have succeed in convincing myself to actually believe that I had.

On the other hand, my mother had often said to me that when she encounters anything that challenges her belief she simply chooses not to think about those things and chooses to believe even harder. She's said that she wishes I was less of a thinker so that I could simply choose to ignore and believe too. But if you have to convince yourself to believe do you actually believe?

Maybe belief isn't a choice itself but involves choices. Maybe cognitive dissidence is a skill some people are born with or are able to cultivate and others aren't.

[Munch]

Strangely I never found myself suffering from cognitive dissidence when it came to 'believing' in certain things. I just went with it at the time, and when facts began to come into it, I questioned it, and came to conclusions that made me think differently to what i did before.

[SGOS]

Mmm.  I am not so sure this is always true.

Well, always is a pretty big word. If I said that I might be out on a limb.  But yet, I can't think of an exception off the top of my head.  But that's why I brought up the topic.  How in the world would a Christian choose to believe?  I can certainly understand that they do.  I can understand that they don't believe in science, but the choice part is beyond me.

In fact in Alcoholics Anonymous  where I met a ton of fundamentalists, I remember one of them saying belief was a choice, although he added, "But how does a person come to believe?"  He didn't have the answer.  Never even attempted to describe the process of choosing.  He never lifted a finger to defend his claim (not that I challenged him.  I didn't).  It made me suspicious, because his evidence was no more than "because he said so."

[SGOS]

Strangely I never found myself suffering from cognitive dissidence when it came to 'believing' in certain things. I just went with it at the time, and when facts began to come into it, I questioned it, and came to conclusions that made me think differently to what i did before.

Yes, beliefs change with various experiences.  They can be educational or hallucinatory.  But if a person is having cognitive dissonance from his belief, he's got some thinking to do.  Hell, I've believed in shit in my recent life too, and had no cognitive dissonance at all until someone points out a logical error.  Perhaps, someone will present an argument for choice that's convincing enough to change my belief about choosing to believe.  Then there will be a transition from one belief to an opposite with only a moment or two of dissonance during the transition.

[SGOS]

Maybe belief isn't a choice itself but involves choices. Maybe cognitive dissidence is a skill some people are born with or are able to cultivate and others aren't.

I really liked your post; the entire thing.  It pretty much describes my transition from belief to no belief.  I processed a hell of a lot of information, fought it with some light weight apologetics for a while.  Then I got into to this "maybe/maybe" not thing.  Then I discovered I didn't believe anymore.  It was never a choice.  It was more like a discovery of my current status.  But when I believed, it was genuine.  Well, mostly genuine.  I guess I always had some doubts starting somewhere between 5 and 10 years old.

[the_antithesis]

I usually counter this bullshit with "then choose to not believe." It usually shuts them up.

[SGOS]

I usually counter this bullshit with "then choose to not believe." It usually shuts them up.

Yeah, it does shut them up, but I have no idea how they are processing it in their heads.  And I've perplexed myself greatly wondering why they don't respond with something, anything.

[Mermaid]

How in the world would a Christian choose to believe? 

Social pressure perhaps? Believing and going through the motions are separate things, I realize. I only have my own perspective.

[Mermaid]

I really liked your post; the entire thing.  It pretty much describes my transition from belief to no belief.  I processed a hell of a lot of information, fought it with some light weight apologetics for a while.  Then I got into to this "maybe/maybe" not thing.  Then I discovered I didn't believe anymore.  It was never a choice.  It was more like a discovery of my current status.  But when I believed, it was genuine.  Well, mostly genuine.  I guess I always had some doubts starting somewhere between 5 and 10 years old.

I can say all of this is also true for myself.

[SGOS]

Social pressure perhaps? Believing and going through the motions are separate things, I realize. I only have my own perspective.

There is a catch phrase in Alcoholics Anonymous.  It's assumed by many a member that the only way you can get sober is by turning your life over to God.  This of course creates a problem for anyone that doesn't believe in god.  If he says, I don't believe in God, their response is, "Don't worry.  You will eventually.  Just fake it till you make it."

They are quite proud of themselves for giving you this advice, but as an atheist, it makes no sense to me.

[the_antithesis]

Yeah, it does shut them up, but I have no idea how they are processing it in their heads.  And I've perplexed myself greatly wondering why they don't respond with something, anything.

I think it's because they weren't expecting that and they are kind of caught between two things:

1) They can't do it which proves they are wrong and they do not want to admit it.
2) There is no way for you to know what they believe or not, so all they have to do to save face is lie, which is a sin and they don't want to do that, either.

This leaves them with nothing to say, so they shut up and that's when you feel really good.

[Mermaid]

There is a catch phrase in Alcoholics Anonymous.  It's assumed by many a member that the only way you can get sober is by turning your life over to God.  This of course creates a problem for anyone that doesn't believe in god.  If he says, I don't believe in God, their response is, "Don't worry.  You will eventually.  Just fake it till you make it."

They are quite proud of themselves for giving you this advice, but as an atheist, it makes no sense to me.

Ugh. I am all about AA if it helps you. But an atheist alcoholic hearing that shit is going to feel like there is no place for them. That is gross.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Wait! You all still believe in the Tooth Fairy right? Because if you don't you should be sent to FEMA death camps with the rest of the grandmas..

[SGOS]

Yeah, it does shut them up, but I have no idea how they are processing it in their heads.  And I've perplexed myself greatly wondering why they don't respond with something, anything.

I think it's because they weren't expecting that and they are kind of caught between two things:

1) They can't do it which proves they are wrong and they do not want to admit it.
2) There is no way for you to know what they believe or not, so all they have to do to save face is lie, which is a sin and they don't want to do that, either.

This leaves them with nothing to say, so they shut up and that's when you feel really good.

I can understand getting caught short for a response needed to address a challenge of critical importance.  But it happens with such regularity with theists that I've hypothesized something like a blind spot in the brain.  When information is presented that logically nullifies a claim, the theist brain treats the information as nonexistent.  The theist doesn't actively ignore it.  Rather it becomes "not there".  This accounts for the theists lack of response, even in the presence of repeated requests for an explanation.  The information and follow up requests remain out side the theist's immediate field of perception, and he appears unfazed and air headed.

[Munch]

The tooth fairy gave me money for a lost tooth. Father christmas gave me presents. The easter bunny gave me chocolate eggs.

I stopped believing this stuff when I grew up, as everyone else does.

But other people, who stopped believing in all the above characters, still believe in a magical sky daddy with an army of angels.

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