Trayvon Martin, One year later

[Colanth]

And you're supposed to be able to evaluate that while getting your face pounded in? What a fucking joke.

Getting socked in the face is not "getting your face pounded in."

And even if Zimmerman had been "getting his face pounded in", unless faced by deadly force, if you respond by deadly force, you take your lumps when you get to court.  If the judge or jury feel that you over-reacted, you serve your sentence without whining about it.

He had a gun and you shot him?  Even if a jury finds you guilty of murder, it'll probably be reversed or sent back on appeal.  He had fists and you shot him?  You'll probably be found guilty of a B felony at least, and spend years in prison.

[BarkAtTheMoon]

split his skull open on the sidewalk

Has anyone else here ever had a decent sized cut on their head? They bleed like a mother fucker. Based on the picture, it looks like he had a very minor cut or two on the back of his head. I seriously doubt it even needed stitches.

I was told in the last thread that in Florida you can attack someone if you feel threatened, regardless of the other person's intent. What if someone got out of their car and jogged up to me to ask for directions, and I felt threatened? In Florida, I could jump them and bash their head in legally, and the person's head I bashed in is guilty for assault because they unknowingly made me feel threatened? We don't know that Zimmerman wanted to detain Trayvon, or that he gave Trayvon a good enough reason to attack him (not saying that I'm certain Trayvon started the fight). Maybe he wanted to detain Trayvon and maybe he didn't. There is reasonable doubt here because he doesn't have a history of detaining people at gunpoint.

Here's the root of the whole thing. For one, Zimmerman had zero authority to detain anybody so if he really wanted to he's definitely in the wrong from the start. He did have a history of overstepping his bounds as neighborhood watch and acting like a wannabe cop.

If the girlfriend is right that Martin asked "Why are you following me?" as his first question when confronting Zimmerman, then it's clear that for better or worse, he felt threatened by Zimmerman and had a valid Stand Your Ground claim according to the Florida law, before the fight ever happened and before Zimmerman retaliated by shooting him in the chest. Zimmerman followed him, Martin saw him and even tried to escape the situation, Zimmerman continued to pursue at least for some amount of time, and it's in question what he did or whether he actually stopped after 911 dispatch told him not to follow. Only then does the confrontation happen.

If I was a betting man, I'd say he gets some sort of manslaughter conviction and/or at the very least, a weapons violation and reckless endangerment. It all depends on the jury, though.

[PopeyesPappy]

According to at least one source this is what Zimmerman reported to the police.

After calling 911 to report Trayvon's suspicious activity Zimmerman lost sight of him. Zimmerman got out of his truck to look for him, but didn't find him. He started walking back to his truck.

 On the way back to his truck Trayvon approached from another direction, intercepted Zimmerman and asked, "Do you have a problem?"

Zimmerman replied, "No."

Trayvon told him, "You do now."

He then punched Zimmerman in the face knocking him to the ground. Trayvon then jumped on top of Zimmerman, punched him some more and slammed his head against the ground repeatedly. During this struggle Zimmerman was calling for help.

At some point during the struggle Trayvon spotted Zimmerman's gun which was still holstered and tried to get it. Zimmerman was able to retain possession of the gun and shot Trayvon ending the fight.

Whether or not it happened that way will be up to the jury to decide. Hopefully they will have more evidence to go on than we do. If the evidence does support Zimmerman's story then I don't believe he is guilty of any crimes, and here is why.

1.   Following Trayvon was not a crime.
2.   Zimmerman never physically confronted Trayvon.
3.   Zimmerman had ceased anything that could be considered physically aggressive behavior by attempting to return to his truck.
4.   Trayvon approached Zimmerman, stopped him from retreating to his truck and initiated physical contact.

One of the things I have heard that conflicts with Zimmerman's story is that it was Trayvon not Zimmerman that was yelling for help during the struggle. This argument is support by so called expert testimony. Testimony that comes from paid experts, i.e. someone who received money to support that claim. However that testimony is in conflict with the FBI's analysis of the recording. They say the recording is of insufficient quality to determine if the calls for help were coming from Trayvon or Zimmerman. It should also be noted that the woman who placed the 911 call reported to police that she believed it was Zimmerman calling for help.

Another argument I have heard is that Zimmerman used excessive force. He should have taken the ass whipping Trayvon was giving him because he was a dumb ass and he deserved it. I'm sorry but hundreds of people in the US are beat to death every year with no weapon of any kind involved. According to FBI statistics there were more than 4000 homicides of this type between 2007 and 2011 alone. That is more than twice as many deaths than are attributed to rifles (including assault rifles) in the same period. George Zimmerman had every reason to be afraid for his life if Trayvon Martin was beating his head against the ground. As such he was justified using any means to stop Trayvon from doing what he was doing.

As I said before following someone is not a crime. If however Zimmerman is lying about the way events unfolded, and he initiated the confrontation by attempting to stop or detain Trayvon then he was wrong. He is not guilty of murder but is legally responsible for the Trayvon's death. If he is telling the truth and Trayvon attacked him while he was attempting to return to his truck then the killing of Trayvon Martin was justified.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Pappy, what's the source for your story about how the interaction started?  Do you have a link handy?

[PopeyesPappy]

http://www.newsmax.com/US/trayvon-marti ... /id/433912

May or may not be the story I read, but has the same stuff in it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thanks, bud.

eta:  It has to be pointed out that this is what Zimmerman himself told police.  The source for the site you linked is the Orange Sentinel.  Here's the opening paragraphs:

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.



Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened Feb. 26. But that night, and in later meetings, he described and re-enacted for police what he says took place.

In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

Civil-rights leaders and more than a million other people have demanded Zimmerman's arrest, calling Trayvon a victim of racial profiling and suggesting Zimmerman is a vigilante.

Trayvon was an unarmed black teenager who had committed no crime, they say, who was gunned down while walking back from a 7-Eleven with nothing more sinister than a package of Skittles and can of Arizona iced tea.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... k-teenager

Is there any independent corroboration of Zimmerman's account?

[Jmpty]

ORLANDO, Fla.-George Zimmerman talked to Sanford police a half-dozen times, going over what happened the night he killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. In the retelling, parts of his story changed. His account also does not line up with other evidence.
 
Here are some of the most prominent inconsistencies:
 
-Where the confrontation happened
 
In his first recorded interview with police the night of the Feb. 26 shooting, Zimmerman said Martin popped out at him from "the bushes."
 
By the time he re-enacted the shooting less than 24 hours later, however, Zimmerman was much more precise, and the spot he pointed out had no bushes nearby.
 
As he walked police through what happened where, he said Martin approached him from his left rear and at a spot near the intersection of two sidewalks.
 
-What Martin said
 
In that first taped interview with Sanford police Investigator Doris Singleton, Zimmerman said that when he and Martin came face to face on that sidewalk, Martin said, "What the (expletive) (is) your problem, homey?"
 
During the next 24 hours, Zimmerman's version of what Martin said would change slightly, becoming less offensive with each telling.
 
In another interview later that night, he told Investigator Chris Serino that Martin said, "You got a problem?"
 
During the re-enactment the next afternoon, he told police that Martin yelled, "Yo, you got a problem?"
 
Also, a 16-year-old Miami girl told prosecutors she heard something different. She said she was on the phone with Martin at the time and heard him say, "What are you following me for?"
 
-Dispatcher asked him to find Martin
 
After first spotting Martin and dialing a nonemergency police number, Zimmerman parked his truck while he talked with the dispatcher, asking that an officer come to the scene.
 
While still on the line, he drove a short distance down the street before parking again.
 
-Why did he move his truck?
 
During the re-enactment the day after the shooting, Zimmerman told detectives it was because he had lost sight of the 17-year-old, and the dispatcher asked him to find him.
 
A review of Zimmerman's recorded call with the dispatcher, though, shows there was no such request.
 
-Did he follow Martin?
 
In his call to police before the shooting, Zimmerman can be heard huffing and puffing as if he had been running or walking fast.
 
"Are you following him?" the dispatcher asked.
 
"Yeah," Zimmerman answered.
 
"OK, we don't need you to do that," the dispatcher said.
 
"OK," Zimmerman said.
 
But after the shooting, he offered a different reason for getting out of his truck. Serino pressed him for an explanation three days later.
 
I was "just going in the same direction he was," Zimmerman said. He had exited his truck, he said, to get a street address for authorities.
 
"Did you pursue the kid? Did you want to catch him?" Serino asked.
 
"No," said Zimmerman.
 
Serino challenged him further: "How do you not know the three streets in your neighborhood (where) you've been living for three years?"
 
Zimmerman replied that he had a bad memory and attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder.
 
Other inconsistencies
 
Investigators also pointed out to Zimmerman in a Feb. 29 interrogation several other discrepancies, but he did not clear them up:
 
-He had said that during their struggle, Martin covered Zimmerman's nose and mouth with his hands, but in a recorded 911 call from a neighbor in which someone can be heard screaming for help, none of the cries sound muffled.
 
-Zimmerman had injuries but not ones that matched the severity of the attack he described, according to Serino. If Martin had been banging Zimmerman's head on the sidewalk, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer should have had skull fractures, not just cuts, Serino said.
 
-There were no defensive wounds on Zimmerman's hands and just one small scrape on a finger of Martin's left hand, Serino said - little evidence of life-and-death struggle.
 
---
 
)2012 The Orlando Sentinel (Orlando, Fla.)
 
Visit The Orlando Sentinel (Orlando, Fla.) at www.OrlandoSentinel.com

[Jmpty]

George Zimmerman's self-defense claim could be hurt by his own witnesses, who have changed their accounts since they were interviewed early on in the Trayvon Martin case.

The Orlando Sentinel reported that four witnesses' statements regarding the Feb. 26 shooting changed significantly when they were interviewed a second time in March. The statements are included in the collection of evidence officially released by the State Attorney's Office last week.

Here is an overview of the key changes in their accounts, as reported by the Sentinel.

Witness 2
A young woman who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes community, where Trayvon was shot, was interviewed twice by Sanford police and once by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

She told authorities that she had taken out her contact lenses just before the incident. In her first recorded interview with Sanford police four days after the shooting, she told lead Investigator Chris Serino, "I saw two guys running. Couldn't tell you who was in front, who was behind."

She stepped away from her window, and when she looked again, she "saw a fistfight. Just fists. I don't know who was hitting who."

A week later, she added a detail when talking again to Serino: During the chase, the two figures had been 10 feet apart.

That all changed when she was reinterviewed March 20 by an FDLE agent. That time, she recalled catching a glimpse of just one running figure, she told FDLE Investigator John Batchelor, and she heard the person more than saw him.

"I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white. I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses. ... I just know I saw a person out there."


Witness 12 was interviewed on March 20, saying she "didn't know which one" was on top of the other during the scuffle. Six days later, she said she was sure it was Zimmerman on top, the Sentinel reported.

Witness 6 lived close to where the incident occurred. On the night of the shooting, he told investigators that Martin was on top, "just throwing down blows on the guy, MMA-style," the paper reported. He also noted that Zimmerman was calling for help. But three weeks later, the witness said he wasn't sure who was calling for help.

Witness 13 said he spotted Zimmerman with "blood on the back of his head," he told police. Zimmerman allegedly told the witness that Martin "was beating up on me, so I had to shoot him." In two interviews after that one a month later, the witness described Zimmerman's demeanor as nonchalant, "... More like, 'Just tell my wife I shot somebody' like it was nothing."

The witnesses are expected to be interviewed at least once more before Zimmerman's trial.

This week, security video was released showing Trayvon Martin at a Sanford, Fla. 7-Eleven the night he died. The teen purchased a bag of Skittles and an Arizona iced tea, a short time before he was killed.

The evidence from that night -- and the dialogue surrounding it -- has grown increasingly complex. Last week, it was revealed that Zimmerman really did sustain injuries to his face and head during the incident. In addition, information from Martin's autopsy report was leaked just one day after medical records from Zimmerman's family physician were released.

ABC News reported that the teen had traces of THC, the drug found in the marijuana plant, in his system the night of the shooting.

 Zimmerman has been charged with shooting 17-year-old Trayvon Martin on the evening of Feb. 26 in a gated community in Sanford, Fla. Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer called 911 and told a police dispatcher that the teen, who was returning from a trip to a nearby convenience store, "looked suspicious." After an altercation, Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest, subsequently telling local police that he acted in self-defense.

[PopeyesPappy]

Thanks, bud.

[spoil:m6516eh0]eta:  It has to be pointed out that this is what Zimmerman himself told police.  The source for the site you linked is the Orange Sentinel.  Here's the opening paragraphs:

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.



Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened Feb. 26. But that night, and in later meetings, he described and re-enacted for police what he says took place.

In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

Civil-rights leaders and more than a million other people have demanded Zimmerman's arrest, calling Trayvon a victim of racial profiling and suggesting Zimmerman is a vigilante.

Trayvon was an unarmed black teenager who had committed no crime, they say, who was gunned down while walking back from a 7-Eleven with nothing more sinister than a package of Skittles and can of Arizona iced tea.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... k-teenager

[/spoil:m6516eh0]

Is there any independent corroboration of Zimmerman's account?

I did say

According to at least one source this is what Zimmerman reported to the police.

As far as independent corroboration goes Zimmerman is the only witness. At least some of the physical evidence supports parts of his account of events. I'm not aware of any that contradicts his story. At least not any that isn't in dispute such as the claims it was Trayvon yelling for help. If there is I'm sure it will come out in the trial. In any case our legal system is built on the concept of innocent until proven guilty. As such it isn't Zimmerman's responsibility to prove it happened the way he claims it did. Rather it is the states responsibility to prove it didn't. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt I might add. If they can't Zimmerman should go free.

[Jmpty]

Thanks, bud.

[spoil:2zupz7kh]eta:  It has to be pointed out that this is what Zimmerman himself told police.  The source for the site you linked is the Orange Sentinel.  Here's the opening paragraphs:

With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk, leaving him bloody and battered, law-enforcement authorities told the Orlando Sentinel.

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.



Zimmerman has not spoken publicly about what happened Feb. 26. But that night, and in later meetings, he described and re-enacted for police what he says took place.

In his version of events, Zimmerman had turned around and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from behind, the two exchanged words and then Trayvon punched him in the nose, sending him to the ground, and began beating him.

Zimmerman told police he shot the teenager in self-defense.

Civil-rights leaders and more than a million other people have demanded Zimmerman's arrest, calling Trayvon a victim of racial profiling and suggesting Zimmerman is a vigilante.

Trayvon was an unarmed black teenager who had committed no crime, they say, who was gunned down while walking back from a 7-Eleven with nothing more sinister than a package of Skittles and can of Arizona iced tea.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/201 ... k-teenager

[/spoil:2zupz7kh]

Is there any independent corroboration of Zimmerman's account?

I did say

According to at least one source this is what Zimmerman reported to the police.

As far as independent corroboration goes Zimmerman is the only witness. At least some of the physical evidence supports parts of his account of events. I'm not aware of any that contradicts his story. At least not any that isn't in dispute such as the claims it was Trayvon yelling for help. If there is I'm sure it will come out in the trial. In any case our legal system is built on the concept of innocent until proven guilty. As such it isn't Zimmerman's responsibility to prove it happened the way he claims it did. Rather it is the states responsibility to prove it didn't. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt I might add. If they can't Zimmerman should go free.

Perhaps you should read the 2 posts above.

[PopeyesPappy]

Which part of two posts above talks about physical evidence or eye witness testimony that contradicts Zimmerman's story?

[Jmpty]

Which part of two posts above talks about physical evidence or eye witness testimony that contradicts Zimmerman's story?

Can't you read?

[Jmpty]

And, which story? he's told several.

[Johan]

As far as independent corroboration goes Zimmerman is the only witness. At least some of the physical evidence supports parts of his account of events. I'm not aware of any that contradicts his story. At least not any that isn't in dispute such as the claims it was Trayvon yelling for help. If there is I'm sure it will come out in the trial. In any case our legal system is built on the concept of innocent until proven guilty. As such it isn't Zimmerman's responsibility to prove it happened the way he claims it did. Rather it is the states responsibility to prove it didn't. Prove it beyond a reasonable doubt I might add. If they can't Zimmerman should go free.

I'm expecting Zimmerman will go free.

[PopeyesPappy]

Which part of two posts above talks about physical evidence or eye witness testimony that contradicts Zimmerman's story?

Can't you read?

I can read. I'm asking you to explain how anything in your post shows things didn't happen the way Zimmerman said it did.