Independence, or else .

[Munch]

Can't we stop this arguing please. Its happened, its settled. With only a few groups of irrational cavemen on both sides currently trying to cause trouble in groups in glasgow, with no outcome for doing so, there isn't anything else needed to be said.

[josephpalazzo]

That's one of the negative side of these referendums (sp?) - those who lose out will have their dreams crushed, and many of them will look for scapegoats.

[Sargon The Grape]

Can't we stop this arguing please. Its happened, its settled. With only a few groups of irrational cavemen on both sides currently trying to cause trouble in groups in glasgow, with no outcome for doing so, there isn't anything else needed to be said.

[Munch]

That's one of the negative side of these referendums (sp?) - those who lose out will have their dreams crushed, and many of them will look for scapegoats.

Having your dreams crushed is understandably bad. But acting like cavemen in an earthquake doesn't benefit anything. We live in a developed society now.

[Icarus]

It is well known that the French conquered England. Parlez-vous frenchie?

It worked in Canada, French is an Official language in on overwhelming English population. Want to work for the Federal government? Unless you speak French you have very slim odds. Even if you get in you can't be promoted past a certain point unless you pass French qualifying tests.

[josephpalazzo]

It worked in Canada, French is an Official language in on overwhelming English population. Want to work for the Federal government? Unless you speak French you have very slim odds. Even if you get in you can't be promoted past a certain point unless you pass French qualifying tests.

Well, my post to Jason78 was in reference to the year 1066CE, when the French sucessfully claimed the English throne at the battle of Hasting. What happened in Canada is a different matter. Bilinguilism was adopted at the Federal level so that those of French origin could have access to federal jobs, which wasn't the case before that adoption. 

[Green Bottle]

Quote''
Can't we stop this arguing please. Its happened, its settled. With only a few groups of irrational cavemen on both sides currently trying to cause trouble in groups in glasgow, with no outcome for doing so, there isn't anything else needed to be said.

No Munch, its not a few groups of irrational cavemen on both sides, all the trouble of the last cpla days in Glasgow city centre has been caused by unionists, and they are the one's who won the fucking vote.
So mibbe you shoul;d get ur facts straight before u blame both sides, all the people arrested last nite were unionists and their supporters.

And its easy to say Forget it and move on if your on the outside looking in, not so easy if the decisions made affect your life and the country you live in.
Gordon brown said in an interview after the result that all the Yes and No supporters should throw away their flags and banners and come together for the sake of the country, well thats fucking rich considering a lot of the negativity and scaremongering directed towards the Yes camp came from him, dont think so brown, and i wonder what he would have said if the result had gone the other way.
We may have lost the vote but the need for independence remains and who knows mibbe in the not too distant future we'll get it, because as long as we are tied to england we cannot grow as a country.
And this promise they made of more powers well a lot of people are starting to doubt it already,
and i doubt thet they'l ever give us any real powers after this .
They promised to start the process the day after the result which was yesterday and so far nothing been said except brown on tv today saying it will definitely happen and he'll make sure of it, nobody believes a word he says.
An the tories and labour are already arguing amongst themselves over how much or how little they are prepared to give, westminster promises dont mean much up here because we've heard it all before and this time will be no different.
So for anybody who says , forget it, move on, and get over it i say, no fucking chance, and a lot of Scots feel the same way.

[Shiranu]

And its easy to say Forget it and move on if your on the outside looking in, not so easy if the decisions made affect your life and the country you live in.

This times a hundred.

Yeah, okay... maybe if this was a sports game, maybe if this was a debate over if spiderman is better than batman... shit that, in the long run, really doesn't matter.

The independence of a nation is kinda big deal, and even moreso when its a debate that goes back hundreds of years and hundreds more of years of violence between the two sides before that.

[Munch]

Listen, I understand your frustration, just the other day you were excited at the prospect of  the yes vote winning, but you can't possibly agree with the actions of these groups in glasgow and around, on either side. This shit doesn't resolve anything, it just makes things worse.
The only thing that can help now is rational nationalism within Scotland itself, actually campaigning for political standards for Scotland to keep itself held, not to break itself apart from each other.

And yes I understand the No voters are slinging shit in the yes voters way, but theres plenty of shit being flung on both sides. 

[Green Bottle]

Munch i know what ur sayin but we've had this shite for weeks, fuckin scare stories all over by the better togethers and now they are telling us we shd just forget it and all be friends again for the sake of the country, well mibbe ur right but no one who voted yes is gonna forget.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Green Bottle, I understand that you are frustrated an angry, but that won't help Scotland. You have to understand that probably a lot of your fellow Scots feel about England in much the same way as Texans feel about America, complete with the wanting to succeed every so often. There's a certain romance to being an independent state, but actually gaining independence means that my fellow Texans (which I identified with until I moved to Vermont) would have to spend some very non-trivial time and cash replacing the federal services its citizens have (for better or worse) come to depend on, rebuilding the treaties that the federal government signed on their behalf that they now are not a party to (like NATO), having to rebuild their military from scratch, and essentially making adversaries of their former country â€" including some of their family and friends. A lot of people are afraid of that change, a change that would destroy life as they knew it forever. That is the fear you have to overcome and replace with the determination to brave and weather the change to come for you to succeed.

Declaring your independence is the EASY part, and Scotland couldn't even muster that. I seriously don't think you guys are ready for real independence. You just don't want it badly enough to overcome the intimidation from the other side, or even apparently to get 15% of you to even care enough about independence to vote about it. No, I'm afraid that even if you succeeded last night to secede, you would have quickly morphed into a puppet state of England, with nominal independence, but no real control over your own politics and destiny. Sorry.

[Munch]

Hakurei has a hard truth to all this I'm afraid. The thing is, scotland despite what some of its ministers claim, saying it would be a wealthy country if independent, was just saying that without further detail, which made me suspicious. The most important thing for a country to be established as independent, would be to have and support its own military, defense, navy, airforce and whatever else it needs to defend itself, and such things do not come cheap. And despite Salmond claiming he could keep englands military and the english pound, he was quite simply blowing smoke rings, he didn't have any power over keeping the military or its war fleet within Scotland, he was simply wishing for it to happen, meaning scotland would have to man its own military, costing millions.

As for the NHS and fear of privatization, that is a fear everyone has, but ultimately was it said what scotlands health service would involve with independence, which again would cost millions to get going from scratch. Resources for the health service are always a problem, but honestly compared to other countries, ours isn't that terrible when you consider others.

The only thing I would say to be weary of are groups like UKIP and their way of approaching things, these assholes should be piled into a van and thrown off a cliff.

TBH, the promises made by Salmond seemed so rosey, but I was in your shoes and heard his speeches, I'd be very weary of his words and question it. Golden promises often never get meet or always have invisible messages written with it. Honestly, if Scotland could pull it off and have its own military and health service guaranteed, then it be different, but without, Scotland would be a vulnerable country for a long time.

[stromboli]

I agree that the Scottish should be independent because my experience with them is that they are a hardy, resourceful and intelligent people that can do better on their own than under the auspices of what the ones I knew considered a foreign power. People are capable of rising to the occasion, and that independent and resourceful nature is all the fuel they need to accomplish whatever goals they set out for.

John Muir, one of my favorite people, was born in Scotland. We have national parks because of him. Many of the successful mountain men in this country were Scots. Scots are unique, they have an identity that is recognizable anywhere on earth. they are a unique people who have the right to be as free and independent as they desire.

We believe in the right of a man to choose his own destiny. I believe that a nation, in turn, deserves that right.

[Icarus]

Well, my post to Jason78 was in reference to the year 1066CE, when the French sucessfully claimed the English throne at the battle of Hasting. What happened in Canada is a different matter. Bilinguilism was adopted at the Federal level so that those of French origin could have access to federal jobs, which wasn't the case before that adoption. 

I was aware, I was making a sarcastic/snide remark about how Canada over-adopted the French language in our Federal system. It turns off a lot of native English speakers who would, in most cases, be better and more qualified for the job than their bilingual counterparts, at least in my field.

We had no problems with trying to beat the culture out of our Aboriginals, yet we went above and beyond to satisfy the French. Politics.

[Munch]

We believe in the right of a man to choose his own destiny. I believe that a nation, in turn, deserves that right.

But that's just it, it did choose, this conclusion came from its own people, and they always had the choice to make that decision. So whatever the outcome was to be, it came from its people.
It's just unfortunate that the vote was so close as it was to cause such a rift between its own.