100 extinctions per million species per year

[Hydra009]

Not so fast! We still have to agree on the definition of species to determine if all bees were destroyed mankind would die off. Which of the 24 different definitions do you want to use?

[Hakurei Reimu]

Solitary, please stop this nitpickery. Nobody is impressed by it. No matter what definition of "species" you use, it will not change the basic findings of the paper or the fact that without bees humanity would be in deep shit trouble.

[Hydra009]

Solitary, please stop this nitpickery. Nobody is impressed by it. No matter what definition of "species" you use, it will not change the basic findings of the paper or the fact that without bees humanity would be in deep shit trouble.

It's my fault.  I was trying to explain how "If just one species becomes extinct, like bees, we will too" isn't technically correct because there are a great many species of bees.  I expected a simple "oh, ok" but got something else entirely.

You're right, without bees, humanity would be in very deep shit.

[Hydra009]

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VSpeciation.shtm

You left off the l at the end.  It's a dead link without it.  And yes, I've been there before.  I just wish you had.  Or failing that, gone there instead of pointlessly arguing to salve a bruised ego.

If just one species becomes extinct, like bees, we will too. Note: Bee's plural.

That statement would've actually have been a lot less objectionable if you had simply amended it to all bee species, which you easily could have done.  Doubling down on poor phrasing probably wasn't the smartest decision on your part.

And please, for the love of all that is good and just in the world, don't use apostrophes for plurals.  That's just...oh yeah, I used that pic already.

Let’s start by defining a species.

Defining a Species

A species is often defined as a group of individuals that actually or potentially interbreed in nature. In this sense, a species is the biggest gene pool possible under natural conditions.

That is correct.  I'm glad you learned at least that much.

All your different bees shown can interbreed, therefore they are all, as a group, a species according to Berkeley biologists.

This is not correct.  And I honestly have no idea where you got the absurd idea that tens of thousands of distinct species can all interbreed.  Because that's about as wrong as saying that all birds can interbreed.  You might want to recheck your source, because it doesn't actually support your argument.

[Mermaid]

To be accurate, the lines of "species" Can be blurred and confusing. Some cases of interspecific hybrids can produce fertile offspring. For instance, there have been fertile mules, and yes, fertile interspecific bees. Some genera can even interbreed in rare cases, although they aren't generally reproductive (Like sheep and goats).

Interspecific bee colonies have been documented.

[Mermaid]

Not all species can breed, even apes and man,

I am not so sure about that. I would not be at all surprised if humans and chimpanzees were able to produce viable offspring.

[Icarus]

I am not so sure about that. I would not be at all surprised if humans and chimpanzees were able to produce viable offspring.

Viable but not fertile perhaps, that goes down a dangerous road.

[Hydra009]

Yes, your picture is of a species, a "sub" species, of bees a species because they can breed with yours.

Dafuq?!  That picture, if you're actually referring to the one I think you're talking about, refers to many different bee species native to the United States, of which there are around 4,000.  They are not subspecies.  FFS man, they have species labels right next to them!  Anyone with the ability to read would immediately know they're different species.

Damn, I'm really starting to regret using that full retarded pic too early.  :(

Not all species can breed, even apes and man

*wonders if he should even attempt to explain that "ape" in scientific classification actually refers to a lot of species, including gorillas, both species of chimps (bonobos and common chimpanzees), orangutans, and humans*

I guess you haven't studied about species and sub species yet.

Scientific classification: Bees make up a superfamily known as the Apoidea. Cellophane bees make up the family Colletidae, mining bees make up the family Andrenidae, sweat bees make up the family Halictidae, the leafcutter and mason bees and their relatives make up the family Megachilidae, the digger bees make up the family Anthophoridae, and honey bees and their relatives make up the family Apidae.

Good, good.  You're so close to figuring it out.  Just one last question for the pot:  what are families (in the taxonomic sense of the word) made out of?

This is the family of species we are talking about, and they can breed.

[Hydra009]

Yeah, I already know that.  You on the other hand, seem to be really struggling with distinguishing species from subspecies.  Might be worth a remedial lesson to get you up to speed, though I'm not getting my hopes up.

So let's play Species or Subspecies!  Winner gets an internet cookie!  Textbooks are allowed and you get one ask the audience.

Apis mellifera + Bombus terrestris.  Different species or different subspecies?
Bombus breviceps + Bombus balteatus.  Different species or different subspecies?
Canis lupus lupus + Canis lupus familiaris.  Different species or different subspecies?

[Hydra009]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Apis_mellifera_subspecies

Keep your internet cookie!

Yes, those are all subspecies of the the European honeybee (apis mellifera).

The image that I posted contained not just the European honeybee, but also the long-horned bee, the eastern carpenter bee, the yellow-masked bee, the hornfaced bee, the small carpenter bee, etc.

Do you finally see your mistake in looking at that and calling them all the same species?

[Hydra009]

You've proven that you can list all the subspecies belonging the different species I've posted.  Congrats.  But you're still just as wrong as you were 5 min ago.  The image still contains many different species.

Here's a freebee just to ol' wheel turning:

European honeybee = Apis mellifera (this is the species name)
eastern carpenter bee = Xylocopa virginica (this is the species name)

A. mellifera = one species
X. virginica = another species

Together, these are two species.  Not two subspecies.  TWO SPECIES.

[Hydra009]

So you are correct then, and http://bugguide.net/node/view/174363/bgref?from=241 is wrong to list the ones you mentioned as sub species. Congratulations!  You are the bee whisperer.

For the hundred time, the bug guide isn't wrong, it just doesn't actually say what you think it does

For example, from the list you posted above, Xylocopa is its own genus.  It contains lots of species.  And some of those contain subspecies.

There's the california carpenter bee (Xylocopa californica).  This species contains the following subspecies:  X. c. arizonensis, X. c. californica, X. c. diamesa

Then there's the eastern carpenter bee (Xylocopa virginica).  This species contains the following subspecies:  Xylocopa virginica texana, Xylocopa virginica virginica, and Xylocopa virginica krombeini

That's a total of two species and 6 subspecies just from these examples.  Do you understand how two is a bigger number than one?

[Hydra009]

Can all the bees you listed interbreed and produce fertile offspring?

NO.

That's what I've been trying to tell you this whole time.  #FFS

[PickelledEggs]

If just the different species of bees becomes extinct, we will too.

fify*
Again solitary, "bees" is a group of species.

Same as how humans are apes, but apes are not necessarily humans. Same as how crows are birds, but birds are not necessarily crows. It's just a grouping.

[PickelledEggs]

OK, so they are not the same species, and when someone talks about bees, then bees are a species when they can not interbreed unless it is with the same species?  It seems that bees are not a specific species, but more than one species that can't necessarily breed with each other. Right?

Different species can interbreed if they are close enough in DNA.

Zebra and donkeys can mate, for instance. They are different species, but they  are closely related enough to breed together