Romulus, Mithras And Jesus

[stromboli]

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2012/01/romulus-and-jesus-compared.html

TABLE 1
THE TRANSLATIONS OF ROMULUS AND JESUS COMPARED

Mimetic Signal with References

1 Missing body.
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ant. rom.
2.56.2-6; Plutarch, Rom. 27.3-5; Matt
28:11-14; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:3;
John 20:2-10

2 Prodigies.
Livy 1.16.1; Ovid, Metam. 14.816-17;
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ant. rom.
2.56.2-6; Plutarch, Rom. 27.6-7; Matt
27:51-54; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45

3 Darkness over the land.
Ovid, Metam. 14.816-22; Dionysius of
Halicarnassus, Ant. rom. 2.56.2-6;
Plutarch, Rom. 27.6-7; Matt 27:45;
Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44

4 Mountaintop speech.
Ovid, Metam. 14.820-24; Matt 28:18-20

5 Great commission.
Livy 1.16.7; Ovid, Metam. 14.811, 815;
Ovid, Fasti 2.475-511; Plutarch, Rom.
28.2; Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ant.
rom. 2.63.4; Matt 28:18-20

6 Ascension.
Livy 1.16.6; Ovid, Metam. 14.820-24;
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ant. rom.
2.56.2-6;Plutarch, Rom. 27.7; Luke 24:51;
Acts 1:9

7 Son of god.
Livy 1.16.3 Matt 27:54; Dionysius of
Halicarnas- sus, Ant. rom. 2.56.2; Mark
15:39; John 20:31

8 Meeting on the road.
Ovid, Fasti 2.475-511; Dionysius of
Halicarnassus, Ant. rom. 2.63.3-4;
Luke 24:13-35; Acts 9:3-19

9 Eyewitness testimony .
Cicero, Resp. 2.10; Livy 1.16.1-8; Ovid,
Fasti 2.475-511; Dionysius of Halicarnassus,
Ant. rom. 2.63.3-4; Plutarch, Rom. 27-28;
Luke 24:35; 1 Cor 15:3-11

10 Taken away in a cloud.
Livy 1.16.1; Dionysius of Halicarnassus,
Ant. rom. 2.56.2-6; Acts 1:9

11 Dubious alternative accounts.
Livy 1.16.4-5; Plutarch, Rom. 27.5-6, 8;
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ant. rom.
2.56.2-6; 2.63.3; Matt 28:11-14

12 Immortal/heavenly body.
Livy 1.16.8; Ovid, Metam. 14.818-28;
Plutarch, Rom. 28.6-8; 1 Cor 15:35-50;
1 Pet 3:18

13 Outside of the city.
Livy 1.16.1; Plutarch, Rom. 27.6; John 19:17

14 The people flee (populifugia).
Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Ant. rom.
2.56.5;Plutarch, Rom. 27.7; Matt (26:56);
28:8; Mark (14:50); 16:8

15 Deification.
Livy 1.16.3; Cicero, Resp. 2.10.20b; Ovid,
Fasti 2.475-511; Dionysius of Halicarnassus,
Ant. rom. 2.56.5-6; Plutarch, Rom. 27.7;
28.3; Matt 27:54; Rom 1:4

16 Belief, homage, and rejoicing.
Ovid, Fasti 2.475-511; Dionysius of
Halicarnassus, Ant. rom. 2.63.3-4; Plutarch,
Rom. 27.8; Matt 28:9, 17; Luke 24:41, 52; John 20:27

17 Bright and shining appearance.
Plutarch, Rom. 28.1-2; Ovid, Fasti 2.475-511;
Matt 17:2; Mark 9:3; Luke 9:29; Acts 9:3; Rev 1:16

18 Frightened subjects.
Ovid, Fasti 2.475-511; Livy 1.16.2;
Plutarch,Rom. 28.2; Matt 28:5, 10; Mark
16:8; Luke 24:37-38

19 All in sorrow over loss.
Livy 1.16.2; Ovid, Fasti 2.475-511;
Plutarch, Rom. 28.2; Luke 24:18-24

20 Inspired message of translation
Plutarch, Rom. 28.3; Acts 1:4-8; 2:1-4

Plutarch's history of Romulus was written either in 75 AD or 110 AD; in either case, contemporary or before the given dates for the gospels and Acts

Ovid lived from 43 BC to 18 AD- also before ths given dates of the gospels etc.

Fasti refers to dates according to the Roman calendar.

Livy was an important historian who lived the same time as Ovid.

The life story as told by Plutarch parallels the story of Jesus closely. Now Mithras:

http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

” Mithras was a Persian deity.  He was also the most widely venerated god in the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus.  The Catholic Encyclopedia as well as the early Church Fathers found this religion of Mithras very disturbing, as there are so many similarities between the two religions, as follows:

1)  Hundreds of years before Jesus, according to the Mithraic religion, three Wise Men of Persia came to visit the baby savior-god Mithra, bring him gifts of gold, myrrh and frankincense.
2)  Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”.
3)  According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.
4)  After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.
5)  Mithra had a celibate priesthood.
6)  Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length).

As you can now see, Christianity derived many of its essential elements from the ancient religion of Mithraism.   Mithraism became intertwined with the cult of Jesus to form what is known today as “Christianity.” Although literary sources on this religion are sparse, an abundance of material evidence exists in the many Mithraic temples and artifacts that archaeologists have found scattered throughout the Roman Empire, from England in the north and west to Palestine in the south and east.  The temples were usually built underground in caves, which are filled with an extremely elaborate iconography (illustrating by pictures, figures and images).  There were many hundreds of Mithraic temples in the Roman Empire, the greatest concentrations have been found in the city of Rome itself.

We often hear about how many of the traditions, rites and symbols of modern day "Christian" holidays have their roots in paganism. Have you ever wondered why December 25th was chosen to celebrate the birth of Jesus? Could it only be a consequence that ancient paganism and the story of Mithras' birth coincides with the Yule/Christmas season? If the accounts in the Bible are correct, the time of Jesus birth would have been closer to mid-summer, for this is when shepherds would have been "tending their flocks in the field " and the new lambs were born. Strange enough, the ancient pagan religion, Mithraism, which dates back over 4,000 years, also celebrated the birth of their "saviour" on December 25th. Franz Cumont, who is consider by many to be the leading research authority on Roman Paganism, explained the ancient religion called Mithraism.

This is just some of the comparative evidence that gives a strong indication that Jesus was a myth derived from previous or concurrent myths. Rome was a potpourri of cultures from all corners of the empire, and the myths of previous cultures such as Egypt, Persia and Greece were certainly known by scholars. Contrast the fact that the Jesus myth closely resembles not one but a few previous myths, the Mythicist position of being able to create a messianic, risen from the dead deity becomes much more likely.

The fact that specific histories of Jesus in Judea from outside or objective sources are completely lacking, I'd say the evidence is fairly strong Jesus was an invention from the beginning.

[stromboli]

Too many coincidences without any evidence to dispute it.

[Mike Cl]

Stromboli, I agree with you 100%--Jesus, the man, did not exist.  He was a conglomerate of many different men and myth.  A little study to make is to put the NT into the order in which they were written.  Paul's writings then, go first.  That is the actual books he wrote, not the several that were attributed to him, but not him.  Then would come Mark, Matthew, Luke and then John.  (None of these were written by the author christians say they were.)  Paul contains no history for Jesus.  That is a bit odd, to say the least, for somebody who is supposed to be a follower of him and who claims him god.  Mark, Matthew and Luke do have historiical stories about Jesus--but they do not always agree on those 'facts'.  Reading it that way changes quite a bit the way one views Jesus.  Which is why the Catholic Fathers arranged their version of the bible as they did.

[Contemporary Protestant]

I am sorry but I don't think that is a credible source. It is very apparent the cite has an agenda. I would prefer to see some better sources concerning Mithra before taking that site seriously

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraic_mysteries

Wikipedia indicates he was born of a rock, not a virgin

[Mike Cl]

Well, Contemporary, would this offering from the site of the Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance, be better?
Life events shared by Jesus and another god-man:

There are numerous god-men in the ancient Mediterranean area and Middle East. There are many stories that appear both in Jesus' biography and in the legends of another god-man:

Mother's pregnancy: It was a common belief among early Christians that Mary was pregnant for only seven months. This legend is preserved in the  Gospel of the Hebrews. Although this gospel was widely used by early Christians, it was never accepted into the official canon. Semele, mother of Dionysus, was also believed to have had a 7 month pregnancy.
Virgin birth: Author William Harwood has written that Jesus' "equation in Greek eyes with the resurrected savior-god Dionysos led an interpolator to insert a virgin-birth myth into the gospel now known as Matthew." 1
Birth Witnesses:
The gospel of Matthew records that Jesus was visited by an unknown number of wise men, called Magi. 
Authors Freke & Gandy identify them as followers of the god man Mithras from Persia. 4
Most other sources believe that they were Zoroastrian priests from Persia who were experts in astrology. There is a Zoroastrian belief "that a son of Zoroaster will be born many years after his death by a virgin...This son will apparantly [sic] raise the dead and crush the forces of evil. Later Christians got rather excited about this apparant [sic] pagan prophecy of the coming of the Messiah..." 2
The gospel of Luke records that Jesus was visited by three shepherds. Mithra the god man from Persia was also visited shortly after birth by three shepherds.
The magi brought gold, frankincense and myrrh. A Pagan belief from the 6th century BCE states that these are the precise materials to use when worshiping God.
Healing: Jesus is recorded throughout the gospels as healing the sick and restoring the dead to life. So was Asclepius, a Greek god man. Pagans and early Christians debated who was the more effective healer.
Ministry: Jesus appeared as a wandering holy man who is later transfigured in the presence of some of his disciples. Dionysus was portrayed in the same manner in Euripides' play The Bacchae, written in 410 BCE.
Miracles:
Both Jesus and Empedocles were recorded as teaching spiritual truths, curing illness, foretelling the future, controlling the wind and rain, and raising people from the dead.
Both Mithra and Jesus performed many healings of the sick and mentally ill; both raised the dead. 3
Mark, chapter 5 describes Jesus driving demons from a man into a herd of about 2,000 pigs who rushed over a cliff and drowned. In Eleusis, about 2,000 initiates would bathe in the sea. Each had a young pig to which the believers' sins would be transferred. The pigs were then chased over a chasm and killed.
Fishing: John 21:11 records that Jesus performed a miracle which enabled Simon Peter to catch exactly 153 fish. The Pagan Pythagoras considered 153 a sacred number. The ratio of 153 to 265 was referred to by the Pagan Archimedes as "the measure of the fish." That ratio is used to generate a fish-like shape using two circles. The sign of the fish was used by the early Christians as their main symbol.
Arrest: 
Both Dionysus and Jesus celebrated a Last Supper with his 12 disciples before his death.
Dionysus is described in Euripides' play The Bacchae as bringing a new religion to the people, being plotted against by the leaders, being arrested and appearing before the political ruler. Dionysus said to his captors "You know not what you are doing..," almost replicating Jesus' words at the cross. He was unjustly accused and executed. All of these themes are seen in the Gospels.
Crucifixion & resurrection: 
Jesus' body was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh and aloe. Osiris was also said to have been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh.
Again, the god men myths had been circulating well before Jesus birth. The Christians would have copied earlier Pagan material, not vice-versa.

[Contemporary Protestant]

I will look into this

However I do in fact have a question, were any of these other god-men sin offerings? 

I am aware that the early church incorporated pagan holidays and beliefs. These are very evident in catholicism. However most of these incorporations are not significant in context to what Jesus represents in Christianity


Dionysus was not born of a virgin, his father is Zeus
http://www.greekmythology.com/Other_Gods/Dionysus/dionysus.html

[Mike Cl]

Contemporary, what do you mean by "sin offerings"?   The OT details scapegoating--that was a sin offering in that all the sins of the tribe or group were put onto the sacrificial goat that was sent out into the desert. 

If I remember correctly, there was no early "church", but early churches and gatherings.  There were many and they did not agree with each other often.  Constantine was responsible for the creation of "The Church". 

And I disagree--the christian incorporated pagan beliefs and holidays were very important!

[Contemporary Protestant]

I am referring to prior to the great schism but after Constantine, when I say early church.

A sin offering is an atonement for sin, Jesus was a sin offering


The Christmas tree, the magi, and the date december 25 don't mean very much to Christian doctrine. Christianity revolves around the crucifixion, not the birth. The birth is discussed but it is not at the center of the religion. My point for saying they are insignificant is that if I were trying to poke holes in christianity, i wouldn't waste my time talking about his birth. Many christians are fully aware of the pagan influence on Christmas

[Mike Cl]

I see your point, Contemporary. 

Thanks for the explanation of sin offering.  The scapegoat was an atonement for sin.  Jesus learned from the goat?

Easter was a major date for celebrating futility and the hope of spring for many pagans.  The dead were rising at easter time will before Jesus.  The Sun arose each year (the day becomes longer then) in Dec. and was celebrated by many pagans.  I have not done this study, but I would venture to say that most if not all, christian celebrations have roots in pagan celebrations and important dates.  Why?  Christianity does not suffer well those who compete with it.  And i do not have to poke holes in Christianity since those holes have existed from the beginning.

[Contemporary Protestant]

No Jesus did not learn it from the goat, the concept of sin offering does have much to do with goats. A sin offering is an offering to appease the wrath of God. Jesus, being without sin, was an ideal sin offering. All the sin that ever was and will be came upon Jesus, and he descended into hell for three days. Then rose again. That is the concept of Jesus being a sin offering

Easter, like Christmas, is likely not the correct date for its corresponding event.

I am unsure why Christianity shares dates with paganism, from my understanding it was to avoid being persecuted, but I have also heard the Catholics did it to control the people and keep them from going back to paganism.

Does that answer your question?

[Mike Cl]

No, Contemporary that did not answer my question.  In my view, Jesus was not an actual person, but a myth.  And Jesus did not invent the idea or practice of atonement; that concept was ancient.  And if one believed in your god then the only real source of sin would be that god.  He is the one that should be punished, not his creation.  And many god-men went to hell and then returned.  There is not a single unique quality for Jesus--all was already there.  Jesus is simply assembled in a unique way--much like Zoroaster or Mithras is unique.  As for Catholics being the ones who usurped the pagan dates and celebrations--they did in fact do that.  But remember there were no Protestants then and would not be until Luther.  So, Catholics (in all their stripes) were the original christians.  Those dates and celebrations were taken over to extinguish those beliefs. 

[Contemporary Protestant]

I didn't say he invented atonement, i  believe i implied it had existed previously

I have a question for you

is not the existence of sin and evil liberating? With sin, you have a choice.  You do not have to do the right thing all the time. I would say God is giving us freedom by allowing sin. Sin is separation from God, so God cannot be the source of sin

I would like you to provide evidence for those claims

[Mike Cl]

Thanks for the reply, Contemporary.

You said:I didn't say he invented atonement, i  believe i implied it had existed previously
Me--You may have.  But like all other aspects of christanity, it was a concept borrowed from others before.  Nothing new here.  i would think that any god worthy of his salt would be able to create and maintain a straight line for his rules.  If he had a word to hand out, would it not be in all languages and from the very beginning?


You suggest:  is not the existence of sin and evil liberating? With sin, you have a choice.  You do not have to do the right thing all the time. I would say God is giving us freedom by allowing sin. Sin is separation from God, so God cannot be the source of sin

Me--As you said, sin is the separation from god (which is a religious concept)--I don't believe in any god, so therefore the concept of sin is meaningless.  And the concept of original sin is harmful.  However there is right and wrong.  How is that determined?  How about starting with the Golden Rule?  Wicca is also good--first do no harm.   

You asked:  I would like you to provide evidence for those claims
Me--Glad to--which claims?

[Contemporary Protestant]

that there is not a single unique quality about jesus, I don't think thats true

You are correct in saying that Christianity is not original, it stems from Judaism

However there is little information about the hebrews, and probably no information that is unbiased

Christians accept the golden rule, jesus stated a form of it "love others as yourself"

My point on sin was to clarify that god isn't the source of sin

[josephpalazzo]

Too many coincidences without any evidence to dispute it.

O come, come... those bronze age shepherds were too dumb to copy anything...