What are your feelings on the death penalty?

Started by Alaric I, February 22, 2013, 01:06:54 PM

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Shiranu

QuoteHowever, the original point still stands: The death penalty doesn't lower the murder rate. In fact, right after an execution, the number of similar crimes increases slightly in the area where the execution was publicized. It does reduce recidivism, though.

Yeah, I agree the death penalty isn't an effective deterent.
Every day is a good day to *remove from server* an autocrat.

Mermaid

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Mermaid"It is wrong to kill people for any reason, IMO.

As an aside -- even in self-defense?  Or the defense of another?
Hm. You got me. I know for a fact that I would feel justified in killing someone in my own defense. You are right. I don't know fr sure about defending another because I have not been in that situation.

Yeah. That kind of invalidates my whole post, doesn't it?
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Aroura33

Quote from: "Mermaid"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Mermaid"It is wrong to kill people for any reason, IMO.

As an aside -- even in self-defense?  Or the defense of another?
Hm. You got me. I know for a fact that I would feel justified in killing someone in my own defense. You are right. I don't know fr sure about defending another because I have not been in that situation.

Yeah. That kind of invalidates my whole post, doesn't it?
Doesn't invalidate it, just needs an addendum.  Killing another person is always wrong except when they are a direct threat to yourself or another.
Someone locked in prison is not a direct threat.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory.  LLAP"
Leonard Nimoy

Alaric I

Quote from: "Aroura33"Doesn't invalidate it, just needs an addendum.  Killing another person is always wrong except when they are a direct threat to yourself or another.
Someone locked in prison is not a direct threat.


That could be construed as moving the goalpost.

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "Mermaid"
Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Mermaid"It is wrong to kill people for any reason, IMO.

As an aside -- even in self-defense?  Or the defense of another?
Hm. You got me. I know for a fact that I would feel justified in killing someone in my own defense. You are right. I don't know fr sure about defending another because I have not been in that situation.

Yeah. That kind of invalidates my whole post, doesn't it?

No, not really, because I get what you're saying, which (I think) is that unavoidable killing is wrong?  

I was just curious about how deeply this opinion ran in you, is all.  Thanks for the plain-spoken answer.

Quote from: "Alaric I"
Quote from: "Aroura33"Doesn't invalidate it, just needs an addendum.  Killing another person is always wrong except when they are a direct threat to yourself or another.
Someone locked in prison is not a direct threat.

That could be construed as moving the goalpost.

Or it could be construed as someone who has refined their opinion.

I don't share her opinion myself, but I respect anyone honest enough to say, "Y'know, I hadn't thought of that."
<insert witty aphorism here>

Alaric I

Quote from: "Thumpalumpacus"
Quote from: "Alaric I"That could be construed as moving the goalpost.

Or it could be construed as someone who has refined their opinion.

I don't share her opinion myself, but I respect anyone honest enough to say, "Y'know, I hadn't thought of that."

Fair point, I guess it didn't look at it that way. My apologies.

Mermaid

Yeah, it's food for thought.

I guess I do not think it's wrong to kill in all cases and that's kind of disturbing.
A cynical habit of thought and speech, a readiness to criticise work which the critic himself never tries to perform, an intellectual aloofness which will not accept contact with life’s realities â€" all these are marks, not as the possessor would fain to think, of superiority but of weakness. -TR

Thumpalumpacus

Quote from: "Mermaid"Yeah, it's food for thought.

I guess I do not think it's wrong to kill in all cases and that's kind of disturbing.

Well, we take morality aboard in such a complex manner that it's pretty easy to pick up dissonant elements.  It's good to think about this stuff, though, and I appreciate the good convo, m'self.

Quote from: "Alaric I"Fair point, I guess it didn't look at it that way. My apologies.

No apologies necessary on my account, bud, but it's appreciated.
<insert witty aphorism here>

Zatoichi

Quote from: "Plu"Here's an even nastier one: ask them if they want to become test subjects in exchange for monetary support to a person of their choosing. We could use the test subjects.

(I'm not sure if I'm even comfortable with this idea myself, though.  :-s )

That would open up some very dangerous territory, not to mention the immorality of using human beings as test subjects.

It would be the same as torture.
It would not necessarily be 100% consensual, as many poor people might do so out of desperation and that's borderline coercion.
Companies wanting to do testing would mislead, coerce, etc, in order to get test subjects.
Justice systems wanting to make $$$ from this would be more likely to use broader definitions of 'eligibility' in order to send more inmates into such a program.

We already have a real problem with the private prison industry lobbying for stricter laws in order to imprison more and more people for lesser crimes. More inmates = more $$$, so the incentive to 'create' rather than reduce crime is already growing. I don't think we need to be creating any more monetary incentive to justify more of this than already exists.
"If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it." ~Skippy's List

zacherystaylor

Quote from: "Plu"Here's an even nastier one: ask them if they want to become test subjects in exchange for monetary support to a person of their choosing. We could use the test subjects.

(I'm not sure if I'm even comfortable with this idea myself, though.  :-s )

Actually they kind of do that already. They study the background of many killers to find out what makers them killers. Then they share the information among academics and the politicians ignore it so that they can use demagoguery tactics without fixing a damn things. Dorothy Otnow Lewis and Lonnie Athens are a couple of what I have found the best researchers on this subject and they have found that violent people have something in common they come from abusive backgrounds so if the politicians didn't bury this information they could use it for policy purposes and educate the public about how violence escalates starting with child abuse then bullying and domestic abuse etc.

As for the effectiveness of the death penalty as a deterrent it doesn't work. In addition to the work I just cited Peter Singer also wrote a few pages on statistical studies in his book "The President of Good and Evil"

http://zakherys.tripod.com/booksqz.htm#sppge

The politicians and commercial media don't even allow the reliable researchers  to present their work to the majority of the public let alone base their decisions on it. Only those that seek it out will find out about this research.

BarkAtTheMoon

I'm not sure that too many people expect the death penalty to really be much of a deterent, then again prison in general doesn't seem to be much of a deterent.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=17

Quote-Among nearly 300,000 prisoners released in 15 states in 1994, 67.5% were rearrested within 3 years. A study of prisoners released in 1983 estimated 62.5%.
-Of the 272,111 persons released from prisons in 15 states in 1994, an estimated 67.5% were rearrested for a felony or serious misdemeanor within 3 years, 46.9% were reconvicted, and 25.4% resentenced to prison for a new crime.
-These offenders had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.

Until we start dealing with the real sources, causes, and reasons for crime, all the death penalty, imprisonment, and gun control arguments aren't going to mean a thing or make any real difference. Those topics deal with the last few steps in a very long path....but they're easier to use to rile people up and make laws about so it looks like something's actually being accomplished.
"When you landed on the moon, that was the point when God should have come up and said hello. Because if you invent some creatures and you put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, then you fucking turn up and say, 'Well done.' It's just a polite thing to do." - Eddie Izzard

zacherystaylor

Quote from: "BarkAtTheMoon"Until we start dealing with the real sources, causes, and reasons for crime, all the death penalty, imprisonment, and gun control arguments aren't going to mean a thing or make any real difference. Those topics deal with the last few steps in a very long path....but they're easier to use to rile people up and make laws about so it looks like something's actually being accomplished.

Exactly, the politicians and medias aren't interested in educating the public about any issues instead they're too interested in using manipulation tactics to advance their agenda which has little if anything to do with the best interest of the majority of the public.

The statistics you cite are a lot like the ones Singer cited but the best research to indicate cause and effect are the ones that researched in depth in the background of the killers.

Also they need to address social injustice and the fact that many people don't have economic opportunities with wage suppression etc.