Perennial Philosophy

[the_antithesis]

I'm not trying to get people to take psychedelics, but rather pique their interest in the topic of psychedelics and the experiences that they have the ability to launch people into.

Then you are a failure.

Also, that is a very pussy, weaking way of trying avoid admitting that you are doing precisely what I am saying, and then do exactly what I am saying. You aren't saying you are doing something different. You are just rephrasing it so it doesn't sound so bad. That makes you dishonest as well as weak.

Go away.

[Solitary]

Well, if you agree with that notion, then I suppose the point of that may be that perhaps endogenous DMT has to do with the fact that meditation can induce these experiences without in-taking exogenous psychedelics. The speculation of the main body of the OP, however, and I'll rephrase it, 'cause Hijiri Byakuren had a problem with my phrasing. It's that "God" when these early religions were just getting traction was originally a metaphor to describe this altered state. In other words, it's my opinion that Christ may have had this experience which I've been referring to as "Cosmic consciousness," and when he went on to share his experience, alas he became the founder of a religion. Likewise, Gautama, Muhammad, etc.

You keep saying Buddha when you are absolutely wrong, Buddha never believed in what you are saying. I agree that it is probably true of other religious leaders, so what?

The Buddha declined to make any statement in regard to the ultimate divine Reality. All he would talk about was Nirvana, which is the name of the experience that comes to the totally selfless and one-pointed. […] Maintaining, in this matter, the attitude of a strict operationalist, the Buddha would speak only of the spiritual experience (mental and feeling.), not of the metaphysical entity presumed by the theologians of other religions, as also of later Buddhism, to be the object and (since in contemplation the knower, the known and the knowledge are all one) at the same time the subject and substance of that experience.

The idea of a Perennial Philosophy is central to the New Age Movement. The New Age movement is a Western spiritual movement that developed in the second half of the 20th century. Its central precepts have been described as "drawing on both Eastern and Western spiritual and metaphysical traditions and infusing them with influences from self-help and motivational psychology, holistic health, parapsychology, consciousness research and quantum physics". The term New Age refers to the coming astrological Age of Aquarius.

The New Age aims to create "a spirituality without borders or confining dogmas" that is inclusive and pluralistic.It holds to "a holistic worldview", emphasising that the Mind, Body and Spirit are interrelated and that there is a form of monism and unity throughout the universe. It attempts to create "a worldview that includes both science and spirituality" and embraces a number of forms of mainstream science as well as other forms of science that are considered fringe.

All of the universe is material, even energy, such as photons, you can't have a mind spirit or soul without a material object, even spacetime is a physical thing. Solitary

[Solitary]

http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/new_age_rel.htm

Introduction by Lewis Loflin

New Age Religion is not a religion at all, but a vast syncretism (or mixing) of numerous religious and philosophical ideas. This has been going on since the time of Alexander the Great, but was snuffed out under Christianity and its enforced dogma starting around 325 AD. Alexander's vast empire opened the door for Eastern religion and mysticism to move West, while Greek philosophy and reason moved East. Today the same process continues, but on a global scale in particular with the internet.

It has some similarities to ancient Gnosticism adopting both its methods and its individual nature. Most often rejecting reason and science That says it all doesn't?, New Age religion more than anything is emotional, filing in a void left by a secular culture and discontent with traditional religious beliefs. Emotional =irrational.

Modern environmentalism could be broadly classified into New Age religion because of its treatment as a pseudo-religion and deification of Nature. This is part of the continuing process of syncretism.

Introduction
The New Age Movement is in a class by itself. Unlike most formal religions, it has no holy text, central organization, membership, formal clergy, geographic center, dogma, creed, etc. They often use mutually exclusive definitions for some of their terms.

The New Age is in fact a free-flowing spiritual movement; a network of believers and practitioners who share somewhat similar beliefs and practices. Their book publishers take the place of a central organization; seminars, conventions, books and informal groups replace of sermons and religious services. Quoting John Naisbitt (1):

"In turbulent times, in times of great change, people head for the two extremes: fundamentalism and personal, spiritual experience...With no membership lists or even a coherent philosophy or dogma, it is difficult to define or measure the unorganized New Age movement.

But in every major U.S. and European city, thousands who seek insight and personal growth cluster around a metaphysical bookstore, a spiritual teacher, or an education center."

The New Age is definitely a heterogeneous movement of individuals; most graft some new age beliefs onto their regular religious affiliation. Recent surveys of US adults (2) indicate that many Americans hold at least some new age beliefs:
8% believe in astrology as a method of foretelling the future

7% believe that crystals are a source of healing or energizing power

9% believe that Tarot Cards are a reliable base for life decisions

About 1 in 4 believe in a non-traditional concept of the nature of God which are often associated with New Age thinking:

11% believe that God is "a state of higher consciousness that a person may reach"

8% define God as "the total realization of personal, human potential"

3% believe that each person is God
The group of surveys cited above (2) classify religious beliefs into 7 faith groups. Starting with the largest, they are: Cultural (Christmas and Easter) Christianity, Conventional Christianity, New Age Practitioner, Biblical (Fundamentalist, Evangelical) Christianity, Atheist/Agnostic,

Other, and Jewish, A longitudinal study from 1991 to 1995 shows that New Agers represent a steady 20% of the population, and are consistently the third largest religious group.

New Age teachings became popular during the 1970's as a reaction against what some perceived as the failure of Christianity and the failure of Secular Humanism to provide spiritual and ethical guidance for the future. Its roots are traceable to many sources: Astrology, Channeling, Hinduism, Gnostic traditions, Neo-paganism, Spiritualism, Theosophy, Wicca, etc.

The movement started in England in the 1960's where many of these elements were well established. Small groups, such as the Findhorn Community in Inverness and the Wrekin Trust formed. The movement quickly became international.
Early New Age mileposts in North America were a "New Age Seminar" ran by the Association for Research and Enlightenment, and the establishment of the East-West Journal in 1971. Actress Shirley MacLaine is perhaps their most famous current figure.

During the 1980's and 90's, the movement came under criticism from a variety of groups. Channeling was ridiculed; seminar and group leaders were criticized for the fortunes that they made from New Agers. Their uncritical belief in the "scientific" properties of crystals was exposed as groundless.

But the movement has become established and become a stable, major force in North American religion during the past generation. As the millennium comes to a close, the New Age is expected to expand, promoted by the social backlash against logic and science.

The "New Age" That Does Not Exist
Major confusion about the New Age has been generated by academics, counter-cult groups, Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians and traditional Muslim groups, etc. Some examples are:

Many of the above groups have dismissed Tasawwuf (Sufism) as a New Age cult. In reality, Sufism has historically been an established mystical movement within Islam, which has always existing in a state of tension with the more legalistic divisions within Islam. It has no connection with the New Age.

Some conservative Christians believe that a massive, underground, highly coordinated New Age organization exists that is infiltrating government, media, schools and churches. No such entity exists. Some conservative Christians do not differentiate among the Occult, Satanism, Wicca, other Neo-pagan religions.

And they seem to regard all as forms of Satanism who perform horrendous criminal acts on children. In fact, the Occult, Satanism, Neo-pagan religions are very different phenomena, and essentially unrelated.

Dr. Carl Raschke, professor of Religious Studies at the University of Denver describes New Age practices as the spiritual version of AIDS; it destroys the ability of people to cope and function." He describes it as "essentially, the marketing end of the political packaging of occultism...a breeding ground for a new American form of fascism."

New Age Beliefs
A number of fundamental beliefs are held my many New Age followers; individuals are encouraged to "shop" for the beliefs and practices that they feel most comfortable with:

Monism: All that exists is derived from a single source of divine energy.

Pantheism: All that exists is God; God is all that exists. This leads naturally to the concept of the divinity of the individual, that we are all Gods. They do not seek God as revealed in a sacred text or as exists in a remote heaven; they seek God within the self and throughout the entire universe.

Panentheism: God is all that exists. God is at once the entire universe, and transcends the universe as well.
Reincarnation: After death, we are reborn and live another life as a human. This cycle repeats itself many times. This belief is similar to the concept of transmigration of the soul in Hinduism.

Karma: The good and bad deeds that we do adds and subtracts from our accumulated record, our karma. At the end of our life, we are rewarded or punished according to our karma by being reincarnated into either a painful or good new life. This belief is linked to that of reincarnation and is also derived from Hinduism.

An Aura is believed to be an energy field radiated by the body. Invisible to most people, it can be detected by some as a shimmering, multi-colored field surrounding the body. Those skilled in detecting and interpreting auras can diagnose an individual's state of mind, and their spiritual and physical health.

Personal Transformation A profoundly intense mystical experience will lead to the acceptance and use of New Age beliefs and practices. Guided imagery, hypnosis, meditation, and (sometimes) the use of hallucinogenic drugs are useful to bring about and enhance this transformation.

Believers hope to develop new potentials within themselves: the ability to heal oneself and others, psychic powers, a new understanding of the workings of the universe, etc.

Later, when sufficient numbers of people have achieved these powers, a major spiritual, physical, psychological and cultural planet-wide transformation is expected.

Ecological Responsibility: A belief in the importance of uniting to preserve the health of the earth, which is often looked upon as Gaia, (Mother Earth) a living entity.

Universal Religion: Since all is God, then only one reality exists, and all religions are simply different paths to that ultimate reality. The universal religion can be visualized as a mountain, with many sadhanas (spiritual paths) to the summit.
Some are hard; others easy. There is no one correct path. All paths eventually reach the top. They anticipate that a new universal religion which contains elements of all current faiths will evolve and become generally accepted worldwide.
New World Order As the Age of Aquarius unfolds, a New Age will develop. This will be a utopia in which there is world government, and end to wars, disease, hunger, pollution, and poverty.

Gender, racial, religious and other forms of discrimination will cease. People's allegiance to their tribe or nation will be replaced by a concern for the entire world and its people.

The Age of Aquarius is a reference to the precession of the zodiac. The earth passes through each of the signs of the zodiac approximately every 24,000 years. Some believe that the earth entered the constellation Aquarius in the 19th Century, so that the present era is the dawning of the age of Aquarius.

Others believe that it will occur at the end of the 20th century. It is interesting to note that the previous constellation changes were:

from Aries to Pisces the fish circa 1st century CE. This happened at a time when Christianity was an emerging religion, and many individuals changed from animal sacrifice in the Jewish temple to embracing the teachings of Christianity. The church's prime symbol at the time was the fish.

from Taurus to Aries the ram circa 2,000 BCE. This happened at a time when the Jews engaged in widespread ritual sacrifice of sheep and other animals in the Temple from Gemini to Taurus the bull circa 4,000 BCE. During that sign, worshiping of the golden calf was common in the Middle East.

New Age Practices
Many practices are common amongst New Agers. A typical practitioner is active in only a few areas:
Channeling A method similar to that used by Spiritists in which a spirit of a long dead individual is conjured up. However, while Spiritists generally believe that one's soul remains relatively unchanged after death, most channelers believe that the soul evolves to higher planes of existence.

They usually try to make contact with a single, spiritually evolved being. That being's consciousness is channeled through the medium and relays guidance and information to the group, through the use of the medium's voice.

Channeling has existed since the 1850's and many groups consider themselves independent of the New Age movement. The popular A Course in Miracles was channeled by Jesus through a New Age psychologist, Dr. Helen Schucman over an 8 year period.

Crystals Crystals are materials which has its molecules arranged in a specific, highly ordered internal pattern. This pattern is reflected in the crystal's external structure which typically has symmetrical planar surfaces.

Many common substances, from salt to sugar, from diamonds to quartz form crystals. They can be shaped so that they will vibrate at a specific frequency and are widely used in radio communications and computing devices. New Agers believe that crystals posses healing energy.

Meditating A process of blanking out the mind and releasing oneself from conscious thinking. This is often aided by repetitive chanting of a mantra, or focusing on an object.


New Age Music A gentle, melodic, inspirational music form involving the human voice, harp, lute, flute, etc. It is used as an aid in healing, massage therapy and general relaxation.

Divination The use of various techniques to foretell the future, including I Ching, Pendulum movements, Runes, Scrying, Tarot Cards.

Astrology The belief that the orientation of the planets at the time of one's birth, and the location of that birth predicts the individual's future and personality. Belief in astrology is common amongst New Agers, but definitely not limited to them.
Holistic Health This is a collection of healing techniques which have diverged from the traditional medical model. It attempts to cure disorders in mind, body and spirit and to promote wholeness and balance in the individual.

Examples are acupuncture, crystal healing, homeopathy, iridology, massage, various meditation methods, polarity therapy, psychic healing, therapeutic touch, reflexology, etc.

Human Potential Movement (a.k.a. Emotional Growth Movement) This is a collection of therapeutic methods involving both individualized and group working, using both mental and physical techniques. The goal is to help individuals to advance spiritually.

Examples are Esalen Growth Center programs, EST, Gestalt Therapy, Primal Scream Therapy, Transactional Analysis, Transcendental Meditation and Yoga.

The Canadian Census (1991) recorded only 1,200 people (0.005%) who identify their religion as being New Age. However, this in no way indicates the influence of new age ideas in the country. Many people identify with Christianity and other religions, but incorporate many new age concepts into their faith.
References Used:

J. Naisbitt and P. Aburdene, Megatrends 2000", William Morrow and Company, New York, NY (1990)

George Barnia, "The Index of Leading Spiritual Indicators", Word Publishing, Dallas TX, (1996)
Richard Kyle, "The Religious Fringe", InterVarsity Press, Downers Grove, IL (1993), Page 285-298

J.Gordon Melton, "Whither the New Age?", Chapter 35 of T. Miller, "America's Alternative Religions", SUNY Press, Albany, NY (1995)
Ref. http://www.religioustolerance.org/

Has everyone gone crazy?  Solitary

[Kafei]

Then you are a failure.

Also, that is a very pussy, weaking way of trying avoid admitting that you are doing precisely what I am saying, and then do exactly what I am saying. You aren't saying you are doing something different. You are just rephrasing it so it doesn't sound so bad. That makes you dishonest as well as weak.

Go away.

I assure you that's not what I'm saying, because I also realize that these things can be potentially very dangerous, especially if you take them in the wrong set and setting. They're obviously not for everyone. If you're depressed, if you feel you have schizophrenic tendencies, if you're not willing to open up, then psychedelics are probably not for you.

They have tremendous therapeutic potential, tremendous potential to launch people into confrontations with aspects of their personality or their history that they're suppressing or denying. If you think you're of a stable mind, and believe in yourself enough that you can responsibly take on this endeavor, then of course, I'm not going to stop you. It's really up to the individual. I mean, if anyone's considering this, I'd emphasize caution. The first psychedelic trip is to the internet or the library, 'cause you want to at least have an idea of what you're getting yourself into, so looking up the LD-50 (lethal dose) or other important concepts you should be aware of is the responsible way to go about this. I'll leave a link to a video of Terence describing a heoric dose psilocybin and DMT experience, and also going over some concepts one should be aware of if they do ever consider using entheogens.

Terence McKenna - How to take Psychedelics

You keep saying Buddha when you are absolutely wrong, Buddha never believed in what you are saying. I agree that it is probably true of other religious leaders, so what?

The Buddha declined to make any statement in regard to the ultimate divine Reality. All he would talk about was Nirvana, which is the name of the experience that comes to the totally selfless and one-pointed. […] Maintaining, in this matter, the attitude of a strict operationalist, the Buddha would speak only of the spiritual experience (mental and feeling.), not of the metaphysical entity presumed by the theologians of other religions, as also of later Buddhism, to be the object and (since in contemplation the knower, the known and the knowledge are all one) at the same time the subject and substance of that experience.

I'm not saying Buddha admitted to a "metaphysical entity," I'm saying that he had  this very type of experience. That's all I'm saying. You keep inferring that I'm implying something else that I'm not.

The idea of a Perennial Philosophy is central to the New Age Movement. The New Age movement is a Western spiritual movement that developed in the second half of the 20th century. Its central precepts have been described as "drawing on both Eastern and Western spiritual and metaphysical traditions and infusing them with influences from self-help and motivational psychology, holistic health, parapsychology, consciousness research and quantum physics". The term New Age refers to the coming astrological Age of Aquarius.

Okay, you copied and pasted from Wiki. What's your point? I mean, what I'm getting at is maybe closer to neurotheology. But people associate all kinds of things of the "New Age" that aren't particularly a part of it. Sort of like your most recent post. I don't deny science and reason, and in fact, I try and think it terms of science and reason. That's why I mentioned that this might be closer to neurotheology, but I wouldn't even necessarily define it as that. Anytime there's a radical idea on Wiki, you're always going to find the article riddled with criticism. You may have also notice that they even reserve an entire section dedicated to "Criticism." There's always going to be the Victor Stengers of the world that reject such notions in the very same way someone might reject to the existence of the "ego death" phenomenon.

I'm referring to specifically the sort of Perennial Philosophy as espoused by Aldous Huxley. The very last link in the second post of the OP is also congruent with my view, it's a lecture given by Alan Watts on the subject of Huxley's Perennial Philosophy.

All of the universe is material, even energy, such as photons, you can't have a mind spirit or soul without a material object, even spacetime is a physical thing. Solitary

What about string theory or M-theory? Is the "11-dimensional hyperspace" of M-theory also a "physical thing"? You know, David Bohm had this idea of "Quantum Mind," he believed that the higher dimensional aspects of superstring theory had a direct correlate into physical reality. So, it may be that these non-manifest potentials and manifest realities are intimately intertwined, but of course, consciousness is still very much a mystery to neuroscience. So, you can't really say it's completely described through physicalism with the force of scientific proof, because there is none.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Until then, it's not "bullshit," it's simply unproven.

That's right. Bullshit, until proven not bullshit.

That's all. The research simply hasn't been done. It's not as easy to gain permission to do these things as you might think.

You want to study endogenous psychodelics, right? That means you don't give your subjects the drug, but try to detect it in vivo under conditions where they self-generate. You don't need special permission to do that. You need special permission to give those persons the drug, but doing that would just confuse the issue and constitute scientific fraud.

Furthermore, yeah, you can use animal models, because although rats can't be commanded to meditate, you also suggest that DMT is produced during periods of hypoxia, which you can induce in a laboratory animal.

So, I say again, put up or shut up, hoss.

Furthermore, I've also pointed out numerous times that the natural path, if it does exists (I believe it does, you doubt it), isn't the only path to inducing this phenomenon. Michael Hoffman goes over this at his website "EgoDeath.com" which I link in one of the initial paragraphs of the OP. John Allegro wrote about the possibility of Christianity holding its roots in the psychedelic mushroom.

If you're going to a mushroom, then it's no longer a case of endogenous DMT, is it?

So, just because you deny the natural route, doesn't dismiss the concept of Perennial Philosophy.

I deny Perennial Philosophy based on the fact that they all get basic facts about the universe and ourselves fucking wrong. There is no spirit; after centuries trying to detect it, we come up with a big fat zero. There is no good or evil as fundamental parts of the universe. When tested against reality using methodological investigation, the track record of religion is very poor.

Perhaps you've heard of Jill Bolte Taylor's "Stroke of Insight." Her experience with a stroke, if you listen to her describe it, if you didn't know any better, you'd think she was describing an LSD experience.

I do know better, and she's describing a loss of identity, not a hallucination. The sense of separation of yourself from your surroundings is localized to a specific region in the brain, which is the region of the brain she describes her pain coming from. That loss of identity occurs when that part of the brain stops functioning right, as happens in a stroke. A hallucinogen can do the same thing, but has other effects, so this really shows nothing.

[Kafei]

That's right. Bullshit, until proven not bullshit.

No, no... Reasonable speculation until proven bullshit would be a more accurate way of putting it.

You want to study endogenous psychodelics, right? That means you don't give your subjects the drug, but try to detect it in vivo under conditions where they self-generate. You don't need special permission to do that. You need special permission to give those persons the drug, but doing that would just confuse the issue and constitute scientific fraud.

You'd have to perform the study during these states of mind speculated to have the DMT spike, i.e. the near-death experience. Now, I don't imagine it would be an easy test to produce, and I'm not sure how you think it's easy.

Furthermore, yeah, you can use animal models, because although rats can't be commanded to meditate, you also suggest that DMT is produced during periods of hypoxia, which you can induce in a laboratory animal.

I'd imagine the stress of a rat might be different than that of a human being. The whole point would be to do it on a human. I mean, I'm not sure if it was you or someone else, I'll go and check the backlog of posts here, but someone denied that possibility that the human pineal gland produced DMT when, in fact, N,N-DMT had been found in the pineal gland of a rat in a 2013 study.

So, I say again, put up or shut up, hoss.
If you're going to a mushroom, then it's no longer a case of endogenous DMT, is it?

You know, the full chemical name of psilocybin is O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. There's a DMT molecule attached at the end there. What I'm saying it may have been mushrooms in one case, as in Christianity, and endogenous DMT in another case, as in the experience of Guatama. It's not quite clear the method in which it was done or if it came about naturally by accident, but it's quite likely that they were, nevertheless, engaging in altered states of consciousness.

I deny Perennial Philosophy based on the fact that they all get basic facts about the universe and ourselves fucking wrong. There is no spirit; after centuries trying to detect it, we come up with a big fat zero. There is no good or evil as fundamental parts of the universe. When tested against reality using methodological investigation, the track record of religion is very poor.

I don't think Perennial Philosophy is claiming a fundamental "good" or "bad," or "spirit," or anything like that. I'm not quite sure why you think that's the claim. Y'ever read the "Tao of Physics"? I'd recommend that book. There are physicists that find that Buddhism is in complete congruence with the modern findings of physics today. Michio Kaku compares the "11 dimensional hyperspace" to the concept of "Brahman" in Hinduism. It seems like the mystic and the physicist have both arrived at the same conclusion, only the physicist has arrived at it intellectually through mathematical conception, and the mystic has arrived through it through intuition that experientially arises out of this profound altered state of consciousness.

I do know better, and she's describing a loss of identity, not a hallucination. The sense of separation of yourself from your surroundings is localized to a specific region in the brain, which is the region of the brain she describes her pain coming from. That loss of identity occurs when that part of the brain stops functioning right, as happens in a stroke. A hallucinogen can do the same thing, but has other effects, so this really shows nothing.

It shows "nothing" in the sense that we haven't figured it out yet. Like I said, the process by which psychedelics work is still a mystery to neuroscience, likewise consciousness itself is yet the biggest conundrum of all in neuroscience despite the fact that we all reside within in it and it is the most intimate part of our daily experience.

[Hakurei Reimu]

No, no... Reasonable speculation until proven bullshit would be a more accurate way of putting it.

It's not 'reasonable speculation' if it's based on no data at all, and when the proposed mechanism is complete and utter bullshit.

You'd have to perform the study during these states of mind speculated to have the DMT spike, i.e. the near-death experience. Now, I don't imagine it would be an easy test to produce, and I'm not sure how you think it's easy.

I'd imagine the stress of a rat might be different than that of a human being. The whole point would be to do it on a human.

Bullshit. As far as gross anatomy and pharmokinetics is concerned, rats are an excellent model. The way the human body deals with hypoxia is going to be quite ancient (evolutionarily speaking) and as such, rats would have very much the same mechanism.

You know, the full chemical name of psilocybin is O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. There's a DMT molecule attached at the end there. What I'm saying it may have been mushrooms in one case, as in Christianity, and endogenous DMT in another case, as in the experience of Guatama. It's not quite clear the method in which it was done or if it came about naturally by accident, but it's quite likely that they were, nevertheless, engaging in altered states of consciousness.

Who the fuck cares about who used what? I'm sure that hallucinogens are and were used in many religions because they provide an experience beyond the norm of the mundane world. However, that has fuck all to do with whether or not this endogenous DMT theory of yours is true. It also has fuck all to do with whether or not they facilitated any sort of great insight into reality as claimed by you ninnies.

I don't think Perennial Philosophy is claiming a fundamental "good" or "bad," or "spirit," or anything like that. I'm not quite sure why you think that's the claim.

Missing the point, have you? The claim of Perennial Philosophy is that the various religions had some deep connection and insight into reality. History and science has shown that any connection to reality gleaned by religion is tenuous and coincidental at best. It's hit or miss, mostly misses. Except for the most mundane and obvious observations, no religion has ever consistently produced any deep insight into the world, and it takes science to separate those "deep insights" from the useless crap.

This is why I don't buy the shit in Tao of Physics or any physics-woo book, or take the Michio Kaku comparision the "11 dimensional hyperspace" to the concept of "Brahman" in Hinduism to be anything more than an illustration. They're isolated hits in a whole fuckload of misses. That stinks of nothing but sheer coincidence to me â€" the guesses of religion are so across-the-board that it would be surprising if none of them got anything right.

It shows "nothing" in the sense that we haven't figured it out yet. Like I said, the process by which psychedelics work is still a mystery to neuroscience, likewise consciousness itself is yet the biggest conundrum of all in neuroscience despite the fact that we all reside within in it and it is the most intimate part of our daily experience.

Yes, and those are directly related: we're still investigating how consciousness works, so of course the mechanism of action of drugs that affect consciousness is going to be a mystery. You haven't said anything of interest. It's just throwing about fancy words in a vain attempt to convince us that you have any smarts to you at all.

[Sargon The Grape]

It's not 'reasonable speculation' if it's based on no data at all, and when the proposed mechanism is complete and utter bullshit.

You're wasting your breath Hakurei. Perineum Philosophy is the unassailable, God-given truth, and you will never convince this idiot otherwise.

[DunkleSeele]

It's possible that I like you, Hiiri. Don't tell anyone.

What's the world coming to?

[Icarus]

You know, the full chemical name of psilocybin is O-phosphoryl-4-hydroxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine. There's a DMT molecule attached at the end there.

Good morning children! It's time for your lesson in organic chemistry. Before you go copy and pasting shit you don't understand into an internet forum in a vain attempt to appear intelligent lets go over some information about organic chemistry. So you said Psilocybin has a DMT molecule attached to the end there, lets take a quick look at the structure of psilocybin and DMT.

Psilocybin:

DMT:


Whats the only difference? I'll give you a hint, it's found in our DNA backbone and has no end, that's right it's phosphate! So now we know that things don't "hang off the end" of phosphate because phosphate has no ends (because of the rotating bonds). You would typically describe the smaller molecule being attached to the larger one anyways. Kafei, you might like saying that the rest of your body is attached to your left hand but the rest of the world doesn't agree (left hand attached to body). Wasn't that fun? Now you know what a phosphate group is, go you!

[Solitary]

What about string theory or M-theory? Is the "11-dimensional hyperspace" of M-theory also a "physical thing"? You know, David Bohm had this idea of "Quantum Mind," he believed that the higher dimensional aspects of superstring theory had a direct correlate into physical reality. So, it may be that these non-manifest potentials and manifest realities are intimately intertwined, but of course, consciousness is still very much a mystery to neuroscience. So, you can't really say it's completely described through physicalism with the force of scientific proof, because there is none.

Now that is not true that conscious is not shown by neurology and caused by a physical mechanism the brain. How this results in consciousness is a mystery---so how does your philosophy have an answer to that? I have a friend that is an engineering physicist that still believes in the supernatural, just because he is a scientists, does that make him right?

You keep saying you do not include Buddha in your evidence of the experience you talk about after I have shown you are wrong. Do you read the replies people have made to you and understand them? You keep saying that you don't think Buddha did what you say, but here are all the quotes from you that you hint at it being true:

I mention this because the very goal of these religions and all sects of Buddhism is essentially one and the same thing. It is an altered state of mind in which this insight manifests. Some monks spend their entire lives practicing disciplines in order to attain this insight, and I'd even wager many have died without ever approaching it, and perhaps they receive it at death.

You know, Buddhists don't go around in the fashion of Jehovah's witnesses telling people they "ought to believe." The point I was trying to make is that the goal of Buddhism is an experience in which you can have for yourself so you don't have to quibble over concepts inside a book. It's when you have to rely on a series of ideas that things can become vague, misconstrued, and this then leads to a vast array of misconception.

So, what Perennial Philosophy of the sort Aldous Huxley wrote about is suggesting is that religion my be a by-product of this phenomenon. That Christ, Muhammad, Gautama, etc. were all mortal men that sometime in their lifetime had this experience of "cosmic consciousness" and when they began to speak about their experiences, each became the founder of a religion. However, in the case of Christianity, Christ was pedestalized in that he was the only "divine being" vouchsafe this experience or at least this is how the religion is expressed today. It's realized in Buddhism that everyone is a potential Buddha, that we all have the potential for this experience.

I'll give you example below. Alan Watts describes the idea of "Brahman" or how it's also stated in Buddhism, "The Self." Listen out for 'The final Self.'

Alan Watts - What Buddhism's About
Well, in a nutshell, it's that there is a phenomenon in consciousness that most people, atheists and theists alike, have not experienced, and, in fact, do not even realize exists. Religion is a kind of byproduct of this phenomenon. In other words, the founders of the major religions who've undergone this experience, i.e. Muhammad, Christ, Gautama, etc.

My opinion is that Gautama was simply another human being who'd undergone this phenomenon in consciousness. I believe religions like Hinduism and Buddhism have surrounded themselves around this phenomenon. Hindus had always used ascetic means, but Gautama came along and realized all that was unnecessary, and so meditation as the relinquishing of volition became the discipline of the eight-fold path. I'm not talking about God, but instead a very God-like state of consciousness which Hindus referred to as "savikalpa samadhi" or simply "samadhi," Buddhists refer to it as "nirvana," but more contemporarily I believe "ego death" has become the preferred name for this phenomenon. There's also "Cosmic consciousness" which was used by Richard M. Bucke. Bucke also believed in a possible perennial philosophy, he goes into the experiences of historical figures in his magnum opus.

In other words, it's my opinion that Christ may have had this experience which I've been referring to as "Cosmic consciousness," and when he went on to share his experience, alas he became the founder of a religion. Likewise, Gautama, Muhammad, etc

Congratulations, you now hold the record for being the most disingenuous person at the forum.  :fU: Solitary

[Kafei]

It's not 'reasonable speculation' if it's based on no data at all, and when the proposed mechanism is complete and utter bullshit.

Well, we know that the pineal gland produces DMT in rats, we haven't confirmed this in human beings. We know that psychedelics have been used for thousands of years, even longer before Hinduism, the grandfather religion, came about. I don't believe that this is unfounded speculation. I'm not the only person that holds this point-of-view, there's plenty others who've came to this conclusion based on reasonable speculation.

Interview with Amber Lyon - What gives you hope?

Bullshit. As far as gross anatomy and pharmokinetics is concerned, rats are an excellent model. The way the human body deals with hypoxia is going to be quite ancient (evolutionarily speaking) and as such, rats would have very much the same mechanism.

Okay, if you think this avenue of research can be done with rodents, then maybe it can. However, the point is that it hasn't been done.

Who the fuck cares about who used what? I'm sure that hallucinogens are and were used in many religions because they provide an experience beyond the norm of the mundane world. However, that has fuck all to do with whether or not this endogenous DMT theory of yours is true. It also has fuck all to do with whether or not they facilitated any sort of great insight into reality as claimed by you ninnies.

You've misconstrued this once again. Perhaps this is the reason you're so against this notion. I'm not referring to a theory based on endogenous experience of DMT. I'm saying that it may have been a naturally induced experience, it may not. Perhaps psychedelics played a role. The route in which these experienced were induced is irrelevant. The point to Perennial Philosophy is that the founders of the religion, by whatever means, had these type of experiences, they underwent a colossal altered state of consciousness. Then, as they went on to share their experiences, each one of them became the founder of a religion.

I'm not sure if you had a moment to listen to the last link I left in the OP, but Alan Watts goes over this, because these experiences, while they exhibit transpersonal motifs, they are nevertheless filtered through the unique personality of the individual, and Watts emphasizes this point. I'll repost the link here, and I recommend you listen to further understand Perennial Philosophy, because you seem to have misinterpreted what I've said thus far. Perhaps if Freud or Jung were around when LSD gained its mainstream attention, then all this would be proven, researched, etc., but unfortunately they did not.

Romain Rolland attempted to make Sigmund Freud aware of this phenomenon. He sent him a letter, and referred to this experience as the "oceanic feeling," but Freud only acknowledged it from an "outside" point-of-view, because he couldn't find the experience in himself. If you don't bother with meditation, psychedelics, etc. then there's no possibility for you to have this experience during your lifetime. Freud may have had it at death, but of course, that's speculation, but if he had, at that point it was, of course, too late.

Alan Watts - Perennial Philosophy

Missing the point, have you? The claim of Perennial Philosophy is that the various religions had some deep connection and insight into reality. History and science has shown that any connection to reality gleaned by religion is tenuous and coincidental at best. It's hit or miss, mostly misses. Except for the most mundane and obvious observations, no religion has ever consistently produced any deep insight into the world, and it takes science to separate those "deep insights" from the useless crap.

As far as I can discern, there are no misses. Any misses you think there is, is merely a misunderstanding or misconstrue on your part. In if you really want to get into this aspect of it, I don't mind. I'll try my best to explain the overlaps in theoretical physics and eastern wisdom, of course, from a layman's point-of-view meaning someone who's read Kaku's, Brian Greene's, Gödel's, Victor Stenger's material, etc.

This is why I don't buy the shit in Tao of Physics or any physics-woo book, or take the Michio Kaku comparision the "11 dimensional hyperspace" to the concept of "Brahman" in Hinduism to be anything more than an illustration. They're isolated hits in a whole fuckload of misses. That stinks of nothing but sheer coincidence to me â€" the guesses of religion are so across-the-board that it would be surprising if none of them got anything right.

The "Tao of Physics" isn't a woo book. It's all based in reality. It's based on physics, it simply just takes an eastern philosophical view on the matter (no pun intended).

Yes, and those are directly related: we're still investigating how consciousness works, so of course the mechanism of action of drugs that affect consciousness is going to be a mystery. You haven't said anything of interest. It's just throwing about fancy words in a vain attempt to convince us that you have any smarts to you at all.

If you really want to challenge this notion, why not try and confirm the "ego death" phenomenon for yourself. I truly doubt you'd be able to come back and try and argue against it once you've had it for yourself. Would you consider taking ayahuasca? Would you consider taking psychedelic mushrooms? I'd wager you wouldn't even give it a single thought.

[Solitary]

  In a major breakthrough in consciousness and psychedelic studies, Cottonwood Research Foundation has published a paper (soon to appear in the Journal Biomedical Chromatography)  documenting the presence of DMT in the brains of living rats.

For decades researchers have hypothesized that DMT may be one of the neurochemicals responsible for consciousness, dreams and visionary experiences. It’s certainly responsible for these and ever weirder experiences for those who have smoked it or taken Ayahuasca. DMT has been documented as naturally occurring in human blood, but this was not conclusive evidence that it is produced in the brain. DMT is structurally related to Serotonin, Melatonin and Pinoline, so the small traces in human blood could be an enzymatic breakdown product of these precursor molecules.

Now we have clear proof of DMT being manufactured in the living Pineal Glands of rats, and that the genes responsible for this exist in the Pineal Gland and Retina! The first implication is that Yes, it truly is a natural neurochemical responsible for modulating consciousness.  It is not a foreign substance to the body & mind of mammals. Also, if found in rats in this context then it is almost certain to function similarly in humans.

From the press release:


We’re excited to announce the acceptance for publication of a paper documenting the presence of DMT in the pineal glands of live rodents. The paper will appear in the journal Biomedical Chromatography and describes experiments that took place in Dr. Jimo Borjigin’s laboratory at the University of Michigan, where samples were collected. These samples were analyzed in Dr. Steven Barker’s laboratory at Louisiana State University, using methods that funding from the Cottonwood Research Foundation helped develop.

The pineal gland has been an object of great interest regarding consciousness for thousands of years, and a pineal source of DMT would help support a role for this enigmatic gland in unusual states of consciousness. Research at the University of Wisconsin has recently demonstrated the presence of the DMT-synthesizing enzyme as well as activity of the gene responsible for the enzyme in pineal (and retina). Our new data now establish that the enzyme actively produces DMT in the pineal.

The next step is to determine the presence of DMT in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF), the fluid that bathes the brain and pineal. CSF is a possible route for pineal-synthesized DMT to effect changes in brain function. Successfully establishing DMT’s presence in this gland adds another link in the chain between the pineal and consciousness and opens new avenues for research.

- See more at: http://disinfo.com/2013/05/breakthrough-dmt-found-in-the-pineal-gland-of-live-rats/#sthash.h8mQGXnN.dpuf   :fU:

[Kafei]

Good morning children! It's time for your lesson in organic chemistry. Before you go copy and pasting shit you don't understand into an internet forum in a vain attempt to appear intelligent lets go over some information about organic chemistry. So you said Psilocybin has a DMT molecule attached to the end there, lets take a quick look at the structure of psilocybin and DMT.

Psilocybin:

DMT:


Whats the only difference? I'll give you a hint, it's found in our DNA backbone and has no end, that's right it's phosphate! So now we know that things don't "hang off the end" of phosphate because phosphate has no ends (because of the rotating bonds). You would typically describe the smaller molecule being attached to the larger one anyways. Kafei, you might like saying that the rest of your body is attached to your left hand but the rest of the world doesn't agree (left hand attached to body). Wasn't that fun? Now you know what a phosphate group is, go you!

I meant attached to the end of the chemical name. The skeletal structure of DMT is obviously a near relative to psilocybin. They're both tryptamine-based neurotransmitters, and they're both capable of producing this state of "ego death" which I've been at great pains to attempt to describe.

[Moralnihilist]

Its gotta be true maaaaan, cause like I saw stuff...