intro

[stromboli]

Christianity is sensible and it spreads sensibly in this day and time, what happened in the past isn't practiced today by missionaries of any protestant denomination I know of. If there are things going on within Africa now it's not sanctioned or condoned by the protestant churches I know of. I wasn't referring to what you said above in my previous statement.

Right. This isn't happening.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-kaoma-uganda-gays-american-ministers-20140323-story.html

.....Some of his assertions would have been laughable had he not been so deadly serious. He claimed that a gay clique that included Adolf Hitler was behind the Holocaust, and he insinuated that gay people fueled the Rwandan genocide.

In the United States, Lively is widely dismissed as an anti-gay firebrand and Holocaust revisionist. But in Uganda, he was presented â€" and accepted â€" as a leading international authority. The public persecution of LGBTQ people escalated after Lively's conference, with one local newspaper publishing the pictures and addresses of activists under the headline, "Hang Them."

Lively was also invited to private briefings with political and religious leaders, and to address the Ugandan parliament during his 2009 visit. The next month, Ugandan lawmaker David Bahati unveiled his Anti-Homosexuality Bill, which in its original form called for the death penalty as punishment for a new crime of "aggravated homosexuality."

Other prominent right-wing evangelicals have also made Uganda appearances, including California's Rick Warren and Lou Engle, who founded TheCall ministry. They met with politicians, hosted rallies and public meetings, and used their influence and credibility to contribute to a culture war in Uganda much more intense and explosive than anything seen in the United States; Lively himself described the work as a "nuclear bomb" in Uganda. These conservative evangelicals later distanced themselves from the law, saying they didn't think homosexuality should be criminalized, but it was too late.

Uganda has deservedly received widespread attention, but it's not the only country with a culture war that carries the fingerprints of U.S. campaigners. Nigeria has passed a bill almost identical to Uganda's, and Cameroon and Zambia are enthusiastically imprisoning LGBTQ people.

And let's not forget Russia. In 2007, Lively traveled throughout Russia to, as he put it, bring a warning about the "homosexual political movement." He urged Russians, among other things, "to criminalize the public advocacy of homosexuality." Last year, President Vladimir Putin signed a bill into law that criminalizes distribution of "gay propaganda" to minors, including any material that "equates the social value of traditional and nontraditional sexual relations."

Later this year, the World Congress of Families â€" an Illinois-based conservative umbrella organization â€" will convene in Russia. As the group's leader, Larry Jenkins, put it: "We're convinced that Russia does and should play a very significant role in defense of the family and moral values worldwide. Russia has become a leader of promoting these values in the international arena."

Nope, not happening.

Or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp75NQZ_Mio


Or this:

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/04/an-unholy-and-despicable-coverup-of-pedophilia-by-the-association-of-baptists-for-world-evangelism/

An Unholy and Despicable Coverup of Pedophilia By the Association of Baptists for World Evangelism

"About 30 missionary kids abused between 1950 and 1990, many at boarding schools in Africa or Asia, received a formal apology from Presbyterian Church (USA) leaders in October. About a month earlier, New Tribes Mission (NTM) released a report detailing the abuse of at least 50 missionary kids who had boarded in Senegal in the late 1980s."

One of the most well-documented cases of  pedophilia on the mission field comes from a group of brave and dedicated adult missionary kids who were abused by a doctor in Bangladesh. This story is  the cause of my 4th of July pacing. I am outraged by the incredibly stupid, unloving, and un-Christian responses by the leaders of  ABWE (Association of Baptists for World Evangelism). This group is part of GARBC (General Association of Regular Baptists). From Wikipedia link:

"The impact of modernism on the Northern Baptist Convention (now called the American Baptist Churches in the USA) led to the eventual withdrawal of a number of conservative and fundamentalist churches. The GARBC follows a "fellowship" model rather than a denominational model. Each member church is free to act independently in all matters. "

Not happening. Christianity is a benevolent and benign belief system.

[stromboli]

Scott Livley and many others can do this guilt free, no problem.

For the same reason Jihadists can perpetrate atrocities.

for the same reason Fundie Mormons can have sex with 14 year old polygamous wives guilt free.

For the same reason a 60 year old Muslim can legally marry a 10 year old girl; all for the same reason.

Because they can justify it.

They can justify it in their scriptures.

Jihadists and Muslim pedophiles can justify it in the Koran.

Mormon polygamists can justify it in the Doctrine and Covenants

And Scott Lively, et al, can justify it in the Bible.

The fact that you willingly put blinders on and ignore all this is evidence of your cognitive dissonance and cultural myopia.

The fact that you can come on an atheist forum and happily parade your ignorance as some kind of benign spirituality is evidence that you are quite simply stupid.

[claytojar]

Protestant churches do the same thing. Every single Christian sect (about 40,000 and mainly in the US) say they are the "One Trueâ,,¢ Church", and that everyone but them are going to hell.

A few do but not nearly the majority, I guess you're wondering how I could know this, well it's simple I know people from many different denominations I have friends who are nonbelievers, I do not discriminate in choosing friends.

How am I defending any church? I am not.

I said it seemed you did, you had bad things to say about the protestant churches and especially the SB church but, not about the Catholic Church.

Really? You know what is in their hearts? Please...

Really I know my friends and family members.

Which is what they adhere to therefore you're against them. And all Christians teach, or live, against some passages in the Bible. Even you. Ever read Corinthians? If you have then you'd know you're not supposed to be on this website because it is filled with unbelievers and we are corrupt, and what do you have in common with "darkness" since you are "light"? Now, be a good boy and explain how I simply took that verse out of context, or though you believe the Bible is literal that passage obviously isn't, or I just don't understand it properly etc.,

Let's establish something here, if you want me to comment on a certain verse you will need to post it. I'm not going through you or anyone saying that's not the verse I was talking about, I do however know what you're referring to, but until you provide a verse for discussion I want.
The Catholic Church adheres to many things not taught or even taught against in the scriptures, so I will disagree with them, just like I think the SB churches teach things I disagree with, the Catholic Church goes way beyond what the scriptures say about certain things. All denominations misinterpret passages in scripture or use one verse or only a few verses at best to establish a belief. I on the other hand try to take in everything on a subject to determine what the truth is. I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about something/s in the Bible, at this point I do not know what they are but, I stay flexible on some subjects so that at some point God will be able to show me where I'm wrong and He has on somethings. I nor any Christian is perfect in their knowledge of God's word and should stay open to His teachings, we're only human after all.

You implied it with your responses of denial.

I didn't say "all Southern Baptist churches preach against Catholics" -- you really have a reading problem, don't you? Just reading what you want.

You didn't specify that you did not mean they all preached against Catholic Churches. I'm like you and all others, we sometimes misread things, you've actually have done this in our discussion, such as the first part of the above quote.

...who works for the SBC. Did you read over that part or just flat out ignore it?

Unimpressed with who you know or their position in this case.

I never said it did.

You said you doubted I was SB, because some of my beliefs differed from the SBC, and by the way I'm not an it.

Rhetoric. And thank you for becoming defensive. So, if I were an ex-Catholic my focus on Christianity shouldn't be Catholicism just because that's who indoctrinated me? Get it? Of course not.

I'm not being defensive, not sure how you read a defensive attitude in my post. I know many Catholics that believe to consider pure Catholicism is not Biblical. 

"Many" equates to how many?

I don't know exactly here are some Methodist, Presbyterian, Nondenominational, Baptist, Adventist and many who have said so on forums.

I'm not confusing anything with anything. But you are becoming so defensive it's hilarious. I pushed you there, and you actually went. You're weak. That's what your religion makes you.

Yes you've made it clear that you are interchanging one for the other. Defensive I haven't been and I think it's hilarious that your reading skills cause you to see something that's not there. The bold above shows you think way to much of yourself, what an atheist attitude can do to some and it certainly does in you.

I didn't miss anything; and without the book would Christianity even exist? So much weight is placed on that book. Please...for you to say that makes you ridiculous.

Oh yes you did, just like the verse in Corinthians you didn't post. You've shown several times now you see only what you want to see. Christianity exploded without the NT in just a few years, the disciples preached from the OT, if you doubt this go and see how many times they reference the OT, just as Jesus did. The Bible is our guide lines on how to live our lives in relationship with the Triune God and other people, to many Christians seem to miss this unfortunately, just as you have. The Bible is also a way God uses to instruct us individually, if we only open our hearts and minds to Him.

The US is not a "free" country. Don't be asinine.

Tell that to all those who come here from different counties, they will disagree with you and why, because many have lived in places that are not free, they truly have another view point.

You just did.

No I didn't, all I asked was do you want me to unfairly equate you and other atheist to Stalin. Again you are reading what you want to see and not what has been actually said.

And if you do you only choose what you feel applies to your SPAG.

This statement shows you pay no attention to what I and probably all Christians who come here actually say, if it's your reading skills please improve them, if it's your hatred for us I petty you.

No, they do not. Unless you have evidence?

I do have proof, most Christians have Bibles other than the KJV, I know there are some denominations that only accept the KJV, that's unfortunate for them because they are using a translation that translate some words incorrectly, we know more about the meanings of some of the Hebrew words than when the KJV was translated. The KJV is a good translation just hard for many people to understand, I've taught children and adults in churches and they have told me they have trouble with the KVJ. You aren't keeping up with what is happening in the church are you.

The "real" meaning as to be aligned with your SPAG.

Please look up the words "revision" and "version".

It's like a movie based on a book or historical event--it's a different version to what was originally stated.

-Nam

As to your first sentence, wrong you are. As to the second, I'm not going to spend time wasted on what you believe they mean, we both know and that's that. The third, nope.

[claytojar]

Hullo.

Hello, hope this hello finds you doing well.

[Poison Tree]

Call me pedantic but I still want a clear answer: what is an acceptable minimum age for rejecting and/or accepting christianity?

[Nam]

A few do but not nearly the majority, I guess you're wondering how I could know this, well it's simple I know people from many different denominations I have friends who are nonbelievers, I do not discriminate in choosing friends.

Using your opinion based on your life as evidence? Really?

I said it seemed you did, you had bad things to say about the protestant churches and especially the SB church but, not about the Catholic Church.

Do you notice that former religious people on here talk more bad things about the religion they came from, and the particular sect of that religion than they do other religions?

I wonder why that is? Hmmmm....

Really I know my friends and family members.

Irrelevant.

Let's establish something here, if you want me to comment on a certain verse you will need to post it. I'm not going through you or anyone saying that's not the verse I was talking about, thing sowever know what you're referring to, but until you provide a verse for discussion I want.

Proof you haven't read the Bible.

The Catholic Church adheres to many things not taught or even taught against in the scriptures, so I will disagree with them, just like I think the SB churches teach things I disagree with, the Catholic Church goes way beyond what the scriptures say about certain things.

Unless you provide evidence, all you're giving is your opinions not facts.

All denominations misinterpret passages in scripture or use one verse or only a few verses at best to establish a belief. I on the other hand try to take in everything on a subject to determine what the truth is

And this hooks up with what i first stated to you: you're right, and everyone else is wrong. This implies that. "Oh, those other Christians do that but i don't." which is what you're implying.

I'm pretty sure I'm wrong about something/s in the Bible, at this point I do not know what they are but, I stay flexible on some subjects so that at some point God will be able to show me where I'm wrong and He has on somethings. I nor any Christian is perfect in their knowledge of God's word and should stay open to His teachings, we're only human after all.

Uh huh.

You didn't specify that you did not mean they all preached against Catholic Churches. I'm like you and all others, we sometimes misread things, you've actually have done this in our discussion, such as the first part of the above quote.

Uh huh.

Unimpressed with who you know or their position in this case.

Uh huh.

You said you doubted I was SB, because some of my beliefs differed from the SBC, and by the way I'm not an it.

Wrong.

I'm not being defensive, not sure how you read a defensive attitude in my post. I know many Catholics that believe to consider pure Catholicism is not Biblical. 

Uh huh.

Yes you've made it clear that you are interchanging one for the other. Defensive I haven't been and I think it's hilarious that your reading skills cause you to see something that's not there. The bold above shows you think way to much of yourself, what an atheist attitude can do to some and it certainly does in you.

Uh huh.

Oh yes you did, just like the verse in Corinthians you didn't post.

It you know the verse do I really need to post it for you? Are you that lazy and/or incompetent? Apparently. Apparently it's my fault.

You've shown several times now you see only what you want tyears

Wrong. There are many things I don't see, admittedly, but in concern to your religion: pure fiction.

Christianity exploded without the NT in just a few years,

Evidence?

the disciples preached from the OT, if you doubt this go and see how many times they reference the OT, just as Jesus did. The Bible is our guide lines on how to live our lives in relationship with the Triune God and other people, to many Christians seem to miss this unfortunately, just as you have. The Bible is also a way God uses to instruct us individually, if we only open our hearts and minds to Him.

Uh huh.

Tell that to all those who come here from different counties, they will disagree with you and why, because many have lived in places that are not free, they truly have another view point.

Uh huh.

No I didn't, all I asked was do you want me to unfairly equate you and other atheist to Stalin. Again you are reading what you want to see and not what has been actually said.

Uh huh.

This statement shows you pay no attention to what I and probably all Christians who come here actually say, if it's your reading skills please improve them, if it's your hatred for us I petty you.

It's "pity", not "petty" -- and why are you getting so defensive and angry?

I do have proof, most Christians have Bibles other than the KJV, I know there are some denominations that only accept the KJV, that's unfortunate for them because they are using a translation that translate some words incorrectly, we know more about the meanings of some of the Hebrew words than when the KJV was translated. The KJV is a good translation just hard for many people to understand, I've taught children and adults in churches and they have told me they have trouble with the KVJ. You aren't keeping up with what is happening in the church are you.

The Bible cannot be proof of itself.

As to your first sentence, wrong you are. As to the second, I'm not going to spend time wasted on what you believe they mean, we both know and that's that. The third, nope.

Uh huh.

-Nam

[claytojar]

Call me pedantic but I still want a clear answer: what is an acceptable minimum age for rejecting and/or accepting christianity?

Acceptance is only when God has called a person to salvation, so if you need specific ages you'll need to ask God. Rejection, I do not know, apparently 10-12 according to one here. maybe you can give me some idea of an appropriate age, seriously.

[DunkleSeele]

I can see you and I are not going to be involved in many discussion, your attitude will keep us from making progress one way or the other. If that's the way you want it, it's fine with me.

Yeah, playing the victim card and shifting the blame. Typical religious. Let me repeat it, given that the last time you completely ignored my real point: YOU are the one coming here hoping to "enlighten" us, YOU are the one who considers spreading your filthy superstition to be "progress". This is called proselitysing, which is very much frown upon here. Your lame attempt at hiding your real intentions by calling them "wanting to have discussions" just makes you a condescending hypocryte. But this was already known from your previous appearances on other forums.

[hrdlr110]

Acceptance is only when God has called a person to salvation, so if you need specific ages you'll need to ask God. Rejection, I do not know, apparently 10-12 according to one here. maybe you can give me some idea of an appropriate age, seriously.

Whatever age you deem appropriate to inform your child there is no Santa clause, tooth fairy (sorry apa), and Easter bunny. I think all magical beings that have zero evidence in support of existing, should be dealt with at the same time. It's one conversation about many characters that all require essentially the same answer. Picking and choosing some over others could be confusing for children. God absolutely positively belongs in that conversation, and god is where I'd start!!!

[Mr.Obvious]

Christianity is sensible and it spreads sensibly in this day and time, what happened in the past isn't practiced today by missionaries of any protestant denomination I know of. If there are things going on within Africa now it's not sanctioned or condoned by the protestant churches I know of. I wasn't referring to what you said above in my previous statement.

Apart from the horrible atrocities I see Stromboli has already posted in response to this particular counterclaim, I'd like to say that Christianity spreading isn't because it's sensible. It spreads mainly because it indoctrinates it's new generations at a young age, like any other religion. Shame and social suïcide are placed as the price for leaving these churches, in many instances. And it teaches to take things on faith, that can't be proven with evidence or at least have no evidence, to be a virtue.
This is how pretty much any religion spreads. If one were to say that Christianity spreading was sign of it's sensibility, than one could say the spread of Islam, which also seems to be growing, is a proof of the sensibility of Islam. But it's not, it just uses the same tactics.     

You're right the Gospel hasn't reached all people yet, great progress is being made, as you noted. Christianity is large in many of those areas, many people do not report themselves as Christians in some countries because they could and in some cases are killed for being a Christian. So the numbers are larger than some know.

One could say that about any religious denomination, however. There could be secret Atheists, secret Muslims, secret Hindu's, secret ...

And, as a sociologist in training, I'd urge you to formulate that differently: "The numbers could be larger than some know." Is more appropriate. Also be carefull with saying 'many' if it's a dark number, something no-one can get a bearing on. It could be many, it could be average, it could be few. If people honestly do not report being it, you can't say how many there are. (I understand if this comes across as nitpicking, but it really is important in sociology to formulate your claims and hypotheses well and I've been drilled in that.)

Millions of years in your belief, not so in Christianity. God has made provision to judge these people in the way they have lived, what all this entails only God knows. He will leave no one out for an opportunity to live with Him forever.

The millions of years does not really matter in this case. To say it's only thousands, to me seems to stem from ignorance, but it does not really matter to the point. I should hope if your God were to exist and he was fair and just, he indeed wouldn't let even a single person born before salvation became possible (after he made it necessary) go without a fair chance.
Too bad this is a realm without evidence and just like there is no proof for a Deity's existance, there is no proof that one can know what said Deity would think and how it's rules would work. (Especially if it's supposed to be an infinitely greater mind than ours. How could one presume to know what God would or would not do if his reasoning and thinking are so far beyond our own capacities.)

The point originally trying to be made was, that if I were born in one of these places I wouldn't have been a Christian, the fact is there is many conversions going on in these areas and the greater fact is I am who I am because of the parents I was born to, so they being in these other places wouldn't matter because they are Christians and my opportunity would have been great. The biggest gripe I have with the scenario is it's just that a scenario that could not apply to my life, so I do not worry about something that can't be. I consider it a waste of time and life.

But if you were born in a country without Christians and knowledge of the bible, as we just agreed exist in the world, you would indeed not have been a Christian.
And, by and large, willfull and pressure-free conversions are anomalies, clay. It happens, but not as often as I think you think. And it happens the other way around too; from Christian to whatever.

I agree with what you say here and it would apply to me, I would have been born to my Christian parents so by and in large I would have been a Christian as long as I searched out a religion. See when you deal with ifs you have to start taking into account many other things that would have had to happen. As it happens three brothers came from Ireland to the United States well over a century and a half ago and my family was established in the south where most of us stay to this day. This is real and the reality of this is I wasn't born in another country. Thanks for the good conversation.

I have to disagree here. You became a Christian because you were, most likely, taught about Christianity before you could even fully comprehend it. You were indoctrinated. 'Searching out a religion' isn't an as free a step as people make it out to be if you are in advance taught about a specific religion, it's customs and dogma and beliefs, at home and in school and in family-context and in churches... If you grow up in a certain Religious atmosphere you are 'taught' to respect and value that religion and thus the question of 'searching out a religion' is not in fact a real question for most; it's a given with a fixed answer.

[stromboli]

The success rate of missionaries, whether they be Christian or Mormon, is directly connected to the intelligence and information gathering ability of the people concerned. It is a lot easier to convert a population that is illiterate and in a state of poverty than in a condition of plenty and well informed.

The LDS church has scaled down its missionary efforts in Scandinavian and western European nations due to lack of success. Their primary focus is in 3rd world countries. It gets a lot tougher when people can look stuff up on the internet.

Like Obvious said, it isn't about information. It's about indoctrination, pure and simple.

[Icarus]

Tell that to all those who come here from different counties, they will disagree with you and why, because many have lived in places that are not free, they truly have another view point.

I'm from a different country and I would say you enjoy fewer freedoms then the country I currently live in and those where my relatives live. If you consider freedom as not being ruled tyrannical dictator then you've never really experienced freedom.

[Nam]

The success rate of missionaries, whether they be Christian or Mormon, is directly connected to the intelligence and information gathering ability of the people concerned. It is a lot easier to convert a population that is illiterate and in a state of poverty than in a condition of plenty and well informed.

The LDS church has scaled down its missionary efforts in Scandinavian and western European nations due to lack of success. Their primary focus is in 3rd world countries. It gets a lot tougher when people can look stuff up on the internet.

Like Obvious said, it isn't about information. It's about indoctrination, pure and simple.

I got a mobile home, and the guy who sold it to me was born in Belize and another guy who worked for him was born in Cameroon. Their parents were Baptist missionaries. (they are both white guys)

I think that's where most missionaries go of any Christian sect, and according to this map: many to choose from:



-Nam

[Sargon The Grape]

Christianity doesn't spread so much as it cannibalizes other Christian sects, for the most part. :/

[Poison Tree]

Acceptance is only when God has called a person to salvation, so if you need specific ages you'll need to ask God. Rejection, I do not know, apparently 10-12 according to one here. maybe you can give me some idea of an appropriate age, seriously.

Still say you are not dodging?
How about this, I'll tell you my idea when you give me a straight answer, seriously