intro

[DunkleSeele]

I did not come here to convert you or anyone else,

Good on you, then we will get alone just fine.

that is the work of the Holy Spirit. I'm here to hopeful have some good intelligent conversations but it's obvious that even with a simple intro threats are made, why?

That wasn't a threat, just an explanation of what usually happens here. As others have said, most Christians coming over here start proselitysing left, right and center, therefore whenever a new member proclaims him/herself a Christian, we tend to get suspicious.

The Bible never tries to prove God.

When you say that your book is the infallible word of god, it automatically means that you consider it a proof of said god.

I disagree with both, I believe that the universe is probably 50,000 years old.

This is the first time I hear a Christian say that, it's usually 6,000 years or the scientifically accepted 13.7 billions. Care to explain how you arrived to your figure?

Evolution has no real proof, so how can it be fact. The fact that evolutionary science makes assumptions doesn't make evolution true.

This is a show of ignorance, plain and simple.

I will try to enjoy my stay but it seems there are some here who are determined to make things hard on Christians without even getting to know them. I've been reading some of the threads here and on other atheist forums and it seems that more than half of the atheist main reason for being involved is to make things hard on Christians.

As others have said, this is the typical "victim card", which actually won't get you any sympathy here. This is an atheist forum, we criticise each and every religion. No, we don't respect your belief; we may respect you, but not your belief. If you think this is equivalent to "making things hard on Christians", live with it.

Anyway, welcome claytojar. :)
Sorry that your welcome/intro thread is polluted by this sort of antipathy.

My antipathy is directed at you because, as usual, you polluted a thread (and an introduction thread, at that) with your usual bullshit. Go stick an umbrella up your ass and open it.

[Lion IRC]

My antipathy is directed at you because, as usual, you polluted a thread (and an introduction thread, at that) with your usual bullshit. Go stick an umbrella up your ass and open it.

All I did was to restate the earlier warning to claytojar about proselytizing.
Surely that is not out of line since it was YOU who said it first.
What IS out of line IMHO is the invective and insults.

[frosty]

All I did was to restate the earlier warning to claytojar about proselytizing.
Surely that is not out of line since it was YOU who said it first.
What IS out of line IMHO is the invective and insults.

You need to get over that. This is the Internet and this is simply how people communicate. People have a right to challenge you on your claims, and even when they insult you, that's just the way people are. Stop whining about it, man up and face it or leave. I'm giving you the most honest advice anybody here will ever give you.

And as you suggested, this discourse is not exclusive to Atheists, as much as you'd like to tell yourself that (you already have a few times now). This is how people on the Internet communicate with sensitive issues, grow a thicker skin.

[Green Bottle]

Hey Claytojar, welcome to the madhouse  but i have to warn u that u wont get an easy time of it in here..............

[claytojar]

We should verify whether or not the theists that come on here have watched Cosmos. It is obvious this one didn't. Would save a lot of explaining, imo.

Watched all of it found a lot interesting and much assumption, it's my belief that those who heard the words possible, might be, could happen and ect. thought they heard the word proven.

[frosty]

Watched all of it found a lot interesting and much assumption, it's my belief that those who heard the words possible, might be, could happen and ect. thought they heard the word proven.

Interesting how you feel that the very same critique and observation you just employed doesn't apply to your own beliefs.

[claytojar]

Interesting how you feel that the very same critique and observation you just employed doesn't apply to your own beliefs.

My belief is not in the physical, the spiritual is completely different, that's why I get a kick out of people trying to compare unicorns, leprechauns, big foot and other supposed physical beings to the spiritual.

[claytojar]

Yes, it is you that has to prove that God exists.  If you can't, you have no reason to claim he does because someone else can't prove he does not.  See?  You have no proof either way.  That is one Hell of a shabby way to claim you have knowledge about the matter.

You misunderstood, it's not about you, it's was about no one ever proving God doesn't exist, this left open the possibility He does. Thus how can I assume He didn't. Then faith is evidence of the unseen, faith leads to believing and believing leads to knowledge. Kinda' like a black hole or dark matter. Yes I do know God is real and that His promises are true, doesn't matter to me whether you believe it or not it doesn't change what I know.

[stromboli]

You misunderstood, it's not about you, it's was about no one ever proving God doesn't exist, this left open the possibility He does. Thus how can I assume He didn't. Then faith is evidence of the unseen, faith leads to believing and believing leads to knowledge. Kinda' like a black hole or dark matter. Yes I do know God is real and that His promises are true, doesn't matter to me whether you believe it or not it doesn't change what I know.

But unlike black holes or dark matter, there are no indicators that your religion is not a human fabrication, since others demonstrably are. Tyson very explicitly pointed out what was conjecture and what was fact derived from evidence. Religion is nothing but an assumption derived from no indicators, no evidence and no facts. that is why it is called a faith- belief in something with no proof.

[PickelledEggs]

My belief is not in the physical, the spiritual is completely different, that's why I get a kick out of people trying to compare unicorns, leprechauns, big foot and other supposed physical beings to the spiritual.

Unicorns were in the bible as were the nephilim giants. They were real physical things according to the holy book that you apparently believe fundamentally.

[claytojar]

But unlike black holes or dark matter, there are no indicators that your religion is not a human fabrication, since others demonstrably are. Tyson very explicitly pointed out what was conjecture and what was fact derived from evidence. Religion is nothing but an assumption derived from no indicators, no evidence and no facts. that is why it is called a faith- belief in something with no proof.

There are plenty but, when one denies them one leaves out the possibility they are true, what you're saying is not unlike what the church did and or said to scientist in the past, funny how both sides of this argument claim to have most all the right answers.

[stromboli]

There are plenty but, when one denies them one leaves out the possibility they are true, what you're saying is not unlike what the church did and or said to scientist in the past, funny how both sides of this argument claim to have most all the right answers.

Oh really? So my 18 years as a Christian and all the reading and study I did couldn't turn up any, but you - "there are plenty, but" horseshit says there is? Try this on for size. I studied religion from square one to get myself out of Mormonism and kept studying when I found the same problems as a Christian. Judaism grew out of a polythiestic belief that became a monotheistic belief and was filtered repeatedly through early Christianity, Catholicism and so on.

The simple fact is this- if a perfect god inspired a perfect work it would be of whole cloth and stand up to scrutiny. There are thousands of sects because nobody agrees on their belief system and such things as the Rapture are totally believed by some and not by others. Every religion on the planet is a fabrication by a man or men, and yours is no different.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZY2eeozdo8

[claytojar]

Good on you, then we will get alone just fine.That wasn't a threat, just an explanation of what usually happens here. As others have said, most Christians coming over here start proselitysing left, right and center, therefore whenever a new member proclaims him/herself a Christian, we tend to get suspicious.

Good and good.

This is the first time I hear a Christian say that, it's usually 6,000 years or the scientifically accepted 13.7 billions. Care to explain how you arrived to your figure?

I'm fortunate that my pastor was a nuclear engineer and his son a brilliant nuclear engineer, both working for outstanding agencies. With that said, they taught us that dating things with any method things fall apart rapidly after 50,000 years, dating just becomes to unreliable to trust after 50,000 years.

This is a show of ignorance, plain and simple.As others have said, this is the typical "victim card", which actually won't get you any sympathy here. This is an atheist forum, we criticise each and every religion. No, we don't respect your belief; we may respect you, but not your belief.

I am not expecting sympathy here, after reading threads on this and other atheist sites I know it's not coming, so why would I play the sympathy card. You seem to be reading things into my statements that are not there. As for the respect as long as that is extended to me we are fine.

[GrinningYMIR]

Well your kind had us killed for millennia, and your cousins still have us killed in dozens of countries across the world


You must see why we have hostility

[claytojar]

Oh really? So my 18 years as a Christian and all the reading and study I did couldn't turn up any, but you - "there are plenty, but" horseshit says there is?

So you're saying because you failed to find what you wanted out of Christianity, I can't, that is a bit arrogant isn't it?

Try this on for size. I studied religion from square one to get myself out of Mormonism and kept studying when I found the same problems as a Christian. Judaism grew out of a polythiestic belief that became a monotheistic belief and was filtered repeatedly through early Christianity, Catholicism and so on.

Could it be that you were always looking for a way out once you discovered the problems with Mormonism, just saying not criticizing. As for Judaism starting out as polytheism I disagree, archaeology doesn't look past the time when the Israelites conquered the Canaanite lands ie. the promised lands. The Israelites did worship other gods after they came into the land, they did this because they disobeyed God and were punished severely for their wrong worship. I wouldn't doubt they worshiped other gods while in Egypt, but then I guess you would need to believe the scriptures to believe they were in Egypt.

The simple fact is this- if a perfect god inspired a perfect work it would be of whole cloth and stand up to scrutiny. There are thousands of sects because nobody agrees on their belief system and such things as the Rapture are totally believed by some and not by others. Every religion on the planet is a fabrication by a man or men, and yours is no different.

You have actually hit the nail on the head when you said, "nobody agrees on their belief system," we are to apply the teachings of God to our lives and not try to make something out of scripture that's not there. I'm a Southern Baptist and I do not believe in the rapture that many do, more and more are moving away from that belief, especially those under learned pastors. Mine is totally different because the God of the Bible is real.

See you all early next week got to go for now, it's been good chatting with you.