intro

[Nam]

Enlightened? How the fuck does one, living in a modern scientific era, become enlightened by a Bronze Age theology that was out of date like ten centuries ago? Well, working on my new religion. Beer and chili, yo. Later. 

Blasphemy! It is not "beer" and "chili"! It is "beer in chili"!

-Nam

[claytojar]

I said "churches". Not one single church but more than one.

That's what the SBC teaches unless they've changed that viewpoint recently, which i highly doubt. Of course many protestant sects teach the same thing.

So you did say churches, I'm sorry you attended those that taught such things.
The Catholic Church teaches many things that do not line up with the scriptures, they also claim to be the only "True Church" and the people in the protestant churches are not saved. Tell me why didn't you try the Catholic Church before making a decision to be an atheist, you seem to be defending a church that condemns most all other Christian churches.
Like I said before I know many Catholics very well and not the first one has condemned me for belonging to the SB church. I have no problem with Catholics, it's the teachings of the church and the church leaders I have problems with, they teach against the Bible.

Do you think that because I became an atheist i stopped going to church? I didn't stop going to church until I was 21 years old. And, nothing changed. Even today at my family's church (literally, it's their church since 1902) they teach the same things, and they, like many Southern Baptist churches in the South are members of the SBC. I have an aunt who works for the SBC in Jacksonville, FL -- do you believe i'm just making this up as I go along? These are the things they adhere to, gossip about, and hear at their churches. For you, as a Southern Baptist to simply deny most or all of what I state makes you look the fool to other former Southern Baptists or perhaps to current Southern Baptists; of course from what you state, I really don't believe you are one, unless in name only.

Did I say anything at all about doubting what you said, I know every well what can be said in a Southern Baptist church. I've attended them for many years. Any Southern Baptist Church that belongs to the SBC doesn't have to hold to all the beliefs of the convention, actually only a few are required, so to say all Southern Baptist Churches preach against Catholics is wrong, but most do heavily disagree with the Catholic doctrine as do most protestant churches, I guess you must not have known that. The people at my church know how I believe and they do not think I'm foolish nor do many other Christians. By the way what does your aunt have to do with this, she's only one in 16.5 million Southern Baptist. Yes I'm a SB I do believe most of what makes up the SBC, like I said earlier the a Southern Baptist doesn't have to believe all of what the convention lays out.

First, it's "SBC" not "SB", one is a sect the other is an organization adhering to that sect. Yes, they would and then deny they ever did.

Splitting hairs now aren't you. I've never met a Southern Baptist that wouldn't stand behind what he/she says, all that tripe is only your opinion. Southern Baptist are not a shame of what they believe, they actually make strong stands on their beliefs, even among themselves. Sounds to me your hatred for Christianity is doubled up on the SBC.

Protestant Christians tend to denounce Catholics as even being Christians themselves unless it benefits them. I hear, and read all the time by protestants how Catholics aren't real Christians, they need to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour

This may be true among those you know however that's a small, small minority of the several million Christians. I have friends from different denominations and they have told me personally that they believe many Catholics are saved. You are confusing Catholics with the Catholic hierarchy, it's that hierarchy and their established rules the protestants and many Catholics disagree with. I've heard Catholics that disagree with the hierarchy and many of those rules.

You ("you" is in general) condemn them, berate them, persecute them, try to strike fear into them (sometimes succeeding), consider them not even human, state they are devil worshippers, etc., and yet to "you" that is being loving. That is asinine.

This is nonsense plain and simple.

Nonsense. They do it because a book orders them to do it. They are ruled by a book, not love of others.

No wonder you left and became an atheist, you think Christianity is about a book, that's ridiculous, Christianity is a relationship with the living God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You missed a lot when you read the Bible.

What did Sarah Palin recently say, "Waterboarding is bringing Christ to terrorists."? Ever think "you" are the terrorist? "You" force your beliefs on others around the world because you love them. If that's love, you can have it.

She is one person, and you have no reason to equate me or other Christians to her. I've never forced my beliefs on anyone and I've heard this many times and it's ridiculous, this is a free country how is it we could force anyone. Stalin was an atheist who killed millions and many of those were Christians, should I equate you and other atheist to Stalin?

Unless you have read 14 versions of the Bible, The Book of Mormon, and the Qur'an, you are not "way ahead" of me.

You sure sit on the edge of your set trying to find ways to have confrontations, I was referring to your challenge to read other revisions. I'm not going to get into a spitting contest about who has read what, I know and understand scripture very well and no revision differs in meaning from another.

It's written in Middle English. Old Englush is comparable to a type of Gaelic (which I can read).

My point is: it's not the original English version nor the original non-English version since things get lost in translation so people have to either make something up or try to edit to suit.

Okay Middle English and it's not spoken here or any where else and it's hard to understand, I'm glad it's easy for you and I know others that don't find it difficult, but the majority do.
Sure there's loss in translation you think I'm stupid and do not understand that, why do you think I mentioned I use the NASB and a study Bible at that, it gives me the Greek and Hebrew and the actual meaning of the word or as close as possible when it's not used. The reason the literal words are sometimes not use is to smooth out the reading not to change the meaning, I have Greek and Hebrew references and if I need it my pastor has a Greek Bible to reference from. You see at my church we go to great lengths to find the real meaning of scriptures.

[claytojar]

You do realize that the people of Africa and other colonies were forcibly indoctrinated and pretty much tortured in the name of conversion. If your counterargument is to be; look at how sensible Christianity is as it spreads across the globe and gets accepted everywhere, just realize this point. Because, I'm not saying it's what you are saying, but if it is what you are saying it's quite insensitive and a major distortion of history.

Christianity is sensible and it spreads sensibly in this day and time, what happened in the past isn't practiced today by missionaries of any protestant denomination I know of. If there are things going on within Africa now it's not sanctioned or condoned by the protestant churches I know of. I wasn't referring to what you said above in my previous statement.

Secondly, even Christianity isn't 'in large numbers in all those areas'. Even to date there are areas in which people live who've never even heard of Jesus Christ, the bible, the gospels or Jehova. These areas are growing smaller, yes, but are definitely not gone.

You're right the Gospel hasn't reached all people yet, great progress is being made, as you noted. Christianity is large in many of those areas, many people do not report themselves as Christians in some countries because they could and in some cases are killed for being a Christian. So the numbers are larger than some know.

Thirdly, even if these pockets of ignorants-towards-christianity dissapear entirely in the near future; it would still have left millions of years of people who hadn't heard of Jesus before he was born and even nearly two thousand years of a globe not having heard of him after he was born and died.

Millions of years in your belief, not so in Christianity. God has made provision to judge these people in the way they have lived, what all this entails only God knows. He will leave no one out for an opportunity to live with Him forever. 

Fourthly, while changing 'religion' does occur from Islam to Christianity or from Christianity to Islam or from Jewish to Hindu or from Hindu to Jewish or whatever... these are by and large anomalies. And in a lot of cases it's like you say: these christians live there in large numbers. Which means that they form a substantial part and within that part raise and indoctrinate their kids, not so much convert others. Which does nothing to add to your point.

The point originally trying to be made was, that if I were born in one of these places I wouldn't have been a Christian, the fact is there is many conversions going on in these areas and the greater fact is I am who I am because of the parents I was born to, so they being in these other places wouldn't matter because they are Christians and my opportunity would have been great. The biggest gripe I have with the scenario is it's just that a scenario that could not apply to my life, so I do not worry about something that can't be. I consider it a waste of time and life.

Look at it this way. Belgium is technically a 'Roman Catholic Country'. But in Antwerp we have a major Orthodox-Jewish community and a substantial Islamic community. People who are born in Roman Catholic households by and large become Roman Catholics. Orthodox-Jewish kids by and large become Orthodox Jews and Islamic children by and large become followers of Islam.
The 'where you were born decides your faith' bit may indeed be interpreted as in 'if you were born in an X-country you would be an X instead of a Y. But what it really gets at is that your cultural upbringing and heritage, which can differ within a country or even within a city, for the main part decides your religious views in later life.

I agree with what you say here and it would apply to me, I would have been born to my Christian parents so by and in large I would have been a Christian as long as I searched out a religion. See when you deal with ifs you have to start taking into account many other things that would have had to happen. As it happens three brothers came from Ireland to the United States well over a century and a half ago and my family was established in the south where most of us stay to this day. This is real and the reality of this is I wasn't born in another country. Thanks for the good conversation.

[claytojar]

And what if the child were, instead of choosing to be a christian or atheist, becoming Jewish or Muslim or Buddhist or a Jain or Zoroastrian or Sikh or . . . ? What if the child had Jewish parents but chose to be christian; should deviating from Torah and Talmud (or Hadith and Quran or . . .) carry the same significance as deviating from scripture? Are those choices more like being a christian or more like being an atheist?

From my point of view, there is no in kind difference between choosing to be any one. Except that christianity, as the majority position, is less likely to result in ostracism, mistrust and persecution--despite constant howls from the pullet.

Anyone leaving one belief system to go to another would take longer to change their beliefs simply because they have to change and change takes time, those who stay with the same belief system are growing in it, not trying to figure out a new belief. This is as simple as I know to explain what I believe in this matter.

[claytojar]

It takes a Christian to ignore what to us are obvious facts. The level of indoctrination involved from Sunday School to attempts at teaching Creationism in schools to Bible camps to being constantly presented with religious biblical material in one form or another.

The one thing I did as a parent, after leaving Mormonism, was to let my children choose for themselves. My youngest was age 8, and all were initially baptized as Christians. I never thought that dunking somebody in a tank of water was anything but symbolic, although a lot of Christians think it is a highly important act of transition. Whatever. No one should force religion on an untrained mind. They went to (1) Bible camp, but after transiting Mormonism it didn't have much affect.

I am very much against anything that serves as intimidation or coercion or indoctrination. A free mind should be allowed to make its own choices.

It takes an atheist to ignore what is obvious to Christians. So we could go around in circles with this but, let's not waste your time or mine. I am glad you have made the choice to let them make a choice. I wouldn't think bad of you if you were to guide them in the way you think, they are your children and you would be doing what you thought best for them. Let me say this though, I did not and do not see that I was intimidated, coerced or indoctrinated and I understand those things, I was born with a rebellious nature.

[claytojar]

OK, I won't comment on the other drivel you posted because it's exactly the same bullshit you've been spewing on AF.org under the name of Godschild and, frankly speaking, it's not worth the effort. Still, the snippet above is a clear sign of your hypocrisy: you say you "want discussions" but, at the same time, you hope some of us will "be enlightened". No asshole, you aren't here to have discussions. Having discussions means that both parties accept the possibility of changing their opinion. What you want is to spew your bullshit and proselytise, because your disgusting book of horror fiction tells you so. You're a condescending, hypocritical asshole. Go shove an umbrella up your ass and open it, shithead.

So I was, and I left because a few were trying to take things into their hands and direct the way conversation would go, those few never contributed to the OP they tried to disrupt the conversations. There were those there I had good conversation with and believe if I got to know them in person outside the forum, could have become friends with if that's what they would have wanted. Those who are ruining AF.org it would seem are cut from the same cloth you are, which is unfortunate. I never tried to convert anyone there, I defended my positions and like I said with over 4 years and 4500 post many had to be good conversation and discussion. Now what went on over there shouldn't have anything to do with here, but I invite anyone to go read my posts, all I would ask is that you start from the first and go to the end. I knew there were people here who are or were over there, I used the same password here as I did there and everyone there knew I raised and trained rottweilers, which is my avatar, I changed to claytojar in hopes of establishing myself here before being judged for coming to another forum. I'm not sure why it made you so mad other than to believe you are like some at AF.org.  Since you find it fair to judge me, it should be fine with you to be judged, but I bet you hate it when someone does.

[PickelledEggs]

It takes an atheist to ignore what is obvious to Christians. So we could go around in circles with this but, let's not waste your time or mine. I am glad you have made the choice to let them make a choice. I wouldn't think bad of you if you were to guide them in the way you think, they are your children and you would be doing what you thought best for them. Let me say this though, I did not and do not see that I was intimidated, coerced or indoctrinated and I understand those things, I was born with a rebellious nature.

Lol at this entire paragraph.

I think we already know you don't see that you are indoctrinated. And rebellion has much less to do with being a nonbeliever than skepticism does.

Think of your belief of that the Bible is true like this :

Did you ever take a huge shit and not realize how bad the bathroom wreaks till you walk past it a few min later?

We see how silly your superstition is because we aren't a part of it any more and some of us never were. To some of us is even more like we are walking past someone else's bathroom that just had a huge shit taken in it.

Sent from your mom

[Sal1981]

Hullo.

[hrdlr110]

I lost faith when I walked in on THIS!!! KFC does jfc! Please explain!

[Nam]

So you did say churches, I'm sorry you attended those that taught such things.
The Catholic Church teaches many things that do not line up with the scriptures, they also claim to be the only "True Church" and the people in the protestant churches are not saved.

Protestant churches do the same thing. Every single Christian sect (about 40,000 and mainly in the US) say they are the "One Trueâ,,¢ Church", and that everyone but them are going to hell.

Tell me why didn't you try the Catholic Church before making a decision to be an atheist, you seem to be defending a church that condemns most all other Christian churches.

How am I defending any church? I am not.

Like I said before I know many Catholics very well and not the first one has condemned me for belonging to the SB church.

Really? You know what is in their hearts? Please...

I have no problem with Catholics, it's the teachings of the church and the church leaders I have problems with, they teach against the Bible.

Which is what they adhere to therefore you're against them. And all Christians teach, or live, against some passages in the Bible. Even you. Ever read Corinthians? If you have then you'd know you're not supposed to be on this website because it is filled with unbelievers and we are corrupt, and what do you have in common with "darkness" since you are "light"? Now, be a good boy and explain how I simply took that verse out of context, or though you believe the Bible is literal that passage obviously isn't, or I just don't understand it properly etc.,

Did I say anything at all about doubting what you said

You implied it with your responses of denial.

I know every well what can be said in a Southern Baptist church. I've attended them for many years. Any Southern Baptist Church that belongs to the SBC doesn't have to hold to all the beliefs of the convention, actually only a few are required, so to say all Southern Baptist Churches preach against Catholics is wrong

I didn't say "all Southern Baptist churches preach against Catholics" -- you really have a reading problem, don't you? Just reading what you want.

but most do heavily disagree with the Catholic doctrine as do most protestant churches, I guess you must not have known that.

Yeah, I must have missed that one. (sarcasm)

The people at my church know how I believe and they do not think I'm foolish nor do many other Christians.

Because if they did they would have to look in the mirror.

By the way what does your aunt have to do with this, she's only one in 16.5 million Southern Baptist.

...who works for the SBC. Did you read over that part or just flat out ignore it?

Yes I'm a SB I do believe most of what makes up the SBC, like I said earlier the a Southern Baptist doesn't have to believe all of what the convention lays out.

I never said it did.

Splitting hairs now aren't you. I've never met a Southern Baptist that wouldn't stand behind what he/she says, all that tripe is only your opinion. Southern Baptist are not a shame of what they believe, they actually make strong stands on their beliefs, even among themselves. Sounds to me your hatred for Christianity is doubled up on the SBC.

Rhetoric. And thank you for becoming defensive. So, if I were an ex-Catholic my focus on Christianity shouldn't be Catholicism just because that's who indoctrinated me? Get it? Of course not.

This may be true among those you know however that's a small, small minority of the several million Christians.

At least you're honest in saying "millions", got to deny that Catholics are Christians!

I have friends from different denominations and they have told me personally that they believe many Catholics are saved.

"Many" equates to how many?

You are confusing Catholics with the Catholic hierarchy, it's that hierarchy and their established rules the protestants and many Catholics disagree with. I've heard Catholics that disagree with the hierarchy and many of those rules.

I'm not confusing anything with anything. But you are becoming so defensive it's hilarious. I pushed you there, and you actually went. You're weak. That's what your religion makes you.

This is nonsense plain and simple.

If you say so.

No wonder you left and became an atheist, you think Christianity is about a book, that's ridiculous, Christianity is a relationship with the living God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You missed a lot when you read the Bible.

I didn't miss anything; and without the book would Christianity even exist? So much weight is placed on that book. Please...for you to say that makes you ridiculous.

She is one person, and you have no reason to equate me or other Christians to her. I've never forced my beliefs on anyone and I've heard this many times and it's ridiculous, this is a free country how is it we could force anyone.

The US is not a "free" country. Don't be asinine.

Stalin was an atheist who killed millions and many of those were Christians, should I equate you and other atheist to Stalin?

You just did.

You sure sit on the edge of your set trying to find ways to have confrontations, I was referring to your challenge to read other revisions. I'm not going to get into a spitting contest about who has read what, I know and understand scripture very well and no revision differs in meaning from another.

And if you do you only choose what you feel applies to your SPAG.

Okay Middle English and it's not spoken here or any where else and it's hard to understand, I'm glad it's easy for you and I know others that don't find it difficult, but the majority do.

No, they do not. Unless you have evidence?

Sure there's loss in translation you think I'm stupid and do not understand that, why do you think I mentioned I use the NASB and a study Bible at that, it gives me the Greek and Hebrew and the actual meaning of the word or as close as possible when it's not used. The reason the literal words are sometimes not use is to smooth out the reading not to change the meaning, I have Greek and Hebrew references and if I need it my pastor has a Greek Bible to reference from. You see at my church we go to great lengths to find the real meaning of scriptures.

The "real" meaning as to be aligned with your SPAG.

Please look up the words "revision" and "version".

It's like a movie based on a book or historical event--it's a different version to what was originally stated.

-Nam

[Poison Tree]

Anyone leaving one belief system to go to another would take longer to change their beliefs simply because they have to change and change takes time, those who stay with the same belief system are growing in it, not trying to figure out a new belief. This is as simple as I know to explain what I believe in this matter.

Now you are just dodging the question. How can someone stay and grow in a belief system they never joined? Lets remember that the original claim of yours was that "early teens" is too young to become an atheist but, in response to my first question, you said that 5 is ok for becoming a christian. Why the disparity? Are children simply forced to be whatever their parents are until the child turns 18? Even if the child doesn't actually believe or agree with that religion? Then what about families with mixed religions? Is the child half Jewish, half Muslim? Is the child allowed to choose between only those two options? Surly if a child can accept a religion (s)he can reject it?

[DunkleSeele]

So I was, and I left because a few were trying to take things into their hands and direct the way conversation would go, those few never contributed to the OP they tried to disrupt the conversations. There were those there I had good conversation with and believe if I got to know them in person outside the forum, could have become friends with if that's what they would have wanted. Those who are ruining AF.org it would seem are cut from the same cloth you are, which is unfortunate. I never tried to convert anyone there, I defended my positions and like I said with over 4 years and 4500 post many had to be good conversation and discussion. Now what went on over there shouldn't have anything to do with here, but I invite anyone to go read my posts, all I would ask is that you start from the first and go to the end. I knew there were people here who are or were over there, I used the same password here as I did there and everyone there knew I raised and trained rottweilers, which is my avatar, I changed to claytojar in hopes of establishing myself here before being judged for coming to another forum. I'm not sure why it made you so mad other than to believe you are like some at AF.org.  Since you find it fair to judge me, it should be fine with you to be judged, but I bet you hate it when someone does.

I see that you conveniently dodged my real point. As I said, you're a hypocrite.

[DunkleSeele]

You're right the Gospel hasn't reached all people yet, great progress is being made, as you noted.

Brainwashing people and enslaving them to your disgusting superstition isn't progress. It's the exact opposite.

[claytojar]

Now you are just dodging the question. How can someone stay and grow in a belief system they never joined? Lets remember that the original claim of yours was that "early teens" is too young to become an atheist but, in response to my first question, you said that 5 is ok for becoming a christian. Why the disparity?

I'm not sure how you think I dodged anything? To start with I said I personally thought the early teens was to young to make such a decision. Secondly I said I've heard of 5 year old children accepting Christ as their savior. Now I personally think that's to young. You assumed I said something I didn't.

Are children simply forced to be whatever their parents are until the child turns 18? Even if the child doesn't actually believe or agree with that religion? Then what about families with mixed religions? Is the child half Jewish, half Muslim? Is the child allowed to choose between only those two options? Surly if a child can accept a religion (s)he can reject it?

Some are probably forced, I actually know of a kid who was, he left the faith, it's been many years since I've seen him so I do not know if he has returned. I've seen kids pushed toward a decision, I stop short of saying forced because they were not having their arms twisted so to speak. I even alerted the pastor to what I had witnessed, I left that church soon after and do not know if he addressed the situation. The great majority of Christian parents including my own do not force or push their children into a decision, they do encourage and teach as is the parents right as parents. And yes they should do what they see is best for their children even if they doubt or disagree, but force no it's not how Christianity is to be, when someone tries to force another they are going against Biblical teaching. That's why scripture says not to marry an partner that is not yoked, this is a very good way to avoid complications with each other and the children, in my opinion it's one of the most sensible things a man and women can consider before marriage. Now I'm speaking only from and for a Christian perspective and do not pretend to speak for others.

[claytojar]

Brainwashing people and enslaving them to your disgusting superstition isn't progress. It's the exact opposite.

I can see you and I are not going to be involved in many discussion, your attitude will keep us from making progress one way or the other. If that's the way you want it, it's fine with me.