Bakery Lost Discrimination Case

[PopeyesPappy]

Sorry to butt in here- I know you're addressing Jason, but I see stuff like this all the time. Not just gays, but people who aren't dressed as well as others, people who are socially awkward, people who aren't attractive, and on and on. Not just one particular group but just people in general. If every one of them went to court- they would shut the whole system down. People need to find a better way to resolve their problems and maybe, just maybe, find that they have something in common and see each other as people rather than an agenda pusher.

And that better way is?

Unfortunately reasoning with other people is not a reliable way to resolve our differences. As far as I can tell that leaves the legal system and violence. Personally I prefer the courts to beating someone into submission.

[marymargaret]

If the system is not working for that much of people, may be it needs to shut down. You need to understand that wishful thinking doesn't work. And reality doesn't go away when you stand up and shout, 'come on guys let's resolve this between us'. This is exactly the same thing with asking people to pray to get things better.

I totally disagree- there is such a thing as arbitration here, maybe you don't have that in your area. It is absolutely nothing like praying- I can't believe anyone would make such a comparison. Logical review of a situation in an attempt to resolve differences without making it a court case has been a very helpful tool for many. Talk about emotional, knee jerk reactions. 

[marymargaret]

And that better way is?

Unfortunately reasoning with other people is not a reliable way to resolve our differences. As far as I can tell that leaves the legal system and violence. Personally I prefer the courts to beating someone into submission.

That's a really limited point of view - if you don't raise the bar for expectations- you get limited change for the better. It has to come from both sides. At some point, people have got to get past this grievance mentality. There's always a danger of people trivializing real problems by making a big deal out of every slight they experience due to someone's narrow mindedness. The public becomes desensitized to the litany of complaints, defeating the goal of better behaviour. I've also heard people say that they were in support of (fill in the blank) but they don't any more because they are sick of (_____) making more and more demands and wanting special treatment above everyone else. This is where many "Cross the Rubicon" and become unmovable in their position.
 

[PopeyesPappy]

Despite what you may be hearing on Fox news gays and lesbians are not asking for special treatment. They are asking for equal treatment. So I'm still waiting on your proposed solution that doesn't involve the legal system to address grievances. 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Surgeon analogy is perfectly fine. You are not aware of the consequences of leaving this issue without any sanctions and cannot imagine that people need to be forced. Do you really believe that baker is just doing that in silence to hold on to his personal 'principles' and not using it for commercial means to his own group?

If the baker gets away with this, he will be the example for many other piece of shit to do same. And there will be doctors, lawyers, teachers, paramedics, nurses, firemen...etc. people who provides crucial service for public and they will see it legitimate to do it.

You have a very fucked up understanding of freedom. Thought crime?! You call this thought crime?   You people are so fucking spoilt.

So you see this situation as perfectly safe:  Even though you, the surgeon, hates me and people like me, I am going to force you to take care of me.  I am going to put my life into your hands, and require you to take care of me.  If you refuse to take care of me, you will be punished by force of law.

You see that as perfectly fine and safe?

Perhaps I was closer to the truth than I realized when I hypothesized that the motive of many here is the smug satisfaction that comes with forcing people to behave the way you want them to.

Despite what PopeyesPappy thinks, I am all about equal treatment.  That's why I am in favor of gay marriage, and also in favor of not forcing the baker to bake a cake that he doesn't want to bake.  At the same time.  Because I'm in favor of equal treatment for everyone, not just special some.

Nothing the baker did resulted in the gay couple not being married.  Therefore he did not violate their rights.  It really is that simple.  He did not violate their rights, they are still married with or without his cake.  He did not force them to do anything, he just declined to do business with them.  He did so for a stupid reason, but you can't take away peoples right to be assholes.  It doesn't work.

[marymargaret]

Despite what you may be hearing on Fox news gays and lesbians are not asking for special treatment. They are asking for equal treatment. So I'm still waiting on your proposed solution that doesn't involve the legal system to address grievances. 

What makes you think I watch Fox News- that's an assumption and I dare say stereotyping someone because they don't agree with you. I can think for myself - thanks. I think the left right paradigm is bullsh*t.

I've gone to school and worked with gay people, I have a fond affection for many of them. My kids had at lease two cross dressing friends who were a heck of a lot of fun on shopping trips. I'm happy that they have the right to get married and enjoy the privileges they were once denied. I understand that MAJOR changes in culture do require legal precedent. It takes time for other members of society to come around, sadly - some never will. What I object to is the shrill whining on both sides when they see a chance to create drama.

Jason has asked you and I'd also like to know- what exact harm did the baker cause the couple? We all choose how we handle difficult situations and difficult people. I've read several articles and not one stated that the baker did anything other than say "no" to baking a wedding cake for them. If he had kept his mouth shut and referred them to another baker and maybe even offered them a discount coupon for a birthday cake or cupcakes- it would have been a non issue. He still would not have made the wedding cake but he would have offered them a good will gesture. He didn't interfere with them and didn't take to the law into their workplace. They did. They may have done him a favor because he has increased business from the people who support him. This may not last- finances get tight, people lose interest- this will impact his business. He has gotten some pretty hateful calls and e mails and I think there was a protest at his store. You may applaud this, but how is this taking the high ground?

Aren't we one of the most litigious countries in the world? Do you really think we need more?     

[PopeyesPappy]

What makes you think I watch Fox News- that's an assumption and I dare say stereotyping someone because they don't agree with you. I can think for myself - thanks. I think the left right paradigm is bullsh*t.

I've gone to school and worked with gay people, I have a fond affection for many of them. My kids had at lease two cross dressing friends who were a heck of a lot of fun on shopping trips. I'm happy that they have the right to get married and enjoy the privileges they were once denied. I understand that MAJOR changes in culture do require legal precedent. It takes time for other members of society to come around, sadly - some never will. What I object to is the shrill whining on both sides when they see a chance to create drama.

Jason has asked you and I'd also like to know- what exact harm did the baker cause the couple? We all choose how we handle difficult situations and difficult people. I've read several articles and not one stated that the baker did anything other than say "no" to baking a wedding cake for them. If he had kept his mouth shut and referred them to another baker and maybe even offered them a discount coupon for a birthday cake or cupcakes- it would have been a non issue. He still would not have made the wedding cake but he would have offered them a good will gesture. He didn't interfere with them and didn't take to the law into their workplace. They did. They may have done him a favor because he has increased business from the people who support him. This may not last- finances get tight, people lose interest- this will impact his business. He has gotten some pretty hateful calls and e mails and I think there was a protest at his store. You may applaud this, but how is this taking the high ground?

Aren't we one of the most litigious countries in the world? Do you really think we need more?     

What I think is that gays and lesbians deserve equal treatment under the law. Based on your earlier comments you seem to think asking for that is the equivalent of demanding special treatment. Well I have news for you it's not. It isn't asking for special treatment to be allowed the same privilege everyone else already gets. It isn't asking for special treatment to expect a business owner to provide you goods or services for the same prices they would happily provide to anyone else because they don't like your sexual orientation.

I'm still waiting on you to tell us what options other than courts these people have. Do you think they should just give it up and be happy living as second class citizens? I don't. I think they need to get out and fight for the right to be treated like everyone else.

[PopeyesPappy]

BTW. If you dont like being accused of being a Faux News groupie maybe you should stop using their talking points.

[marymargaret]

What I think is that gays and lesbians deserve equal treatment under the law. Based on your earlier comments you seem to think asking for that is the equivalent of demanding special treatment. Well I have news for you it's not. It isn't asking for special treatment to be allowed the same privilege everyone else already gets. It isn't asking for special treatment to expect a business owner to provide you goods or services for the same prices they would happily provide to anyone else because they don't like your sexual orientation.

I'm still waiting on you to tell us what options other than courts these people have. Do you think they should just give it up and be happy living as second class citizens? I don't. I think they need to get out and fight for the right to be treated like everyone else.

They have equal rights under the law- more and more states are coming on board- these things don't happen overnight. You mean you've never been slighted or treated differently than other people? Years ago I remember going to a posh store at the mall to buy a gift for my friend- that happened to be the only place that carried it. There was a person ahead of me and I waited my turn. The snotty clerk looked at my purchase and went to another customer with a more expensive purchase instead of just cashing my quick purchase out. I waited, and she did finally deign to wait on me with no apology. I wonder what she didn't like about me- wasn't I dressed well enough or was my purchase too small to matter? Was she a snob or was she told to put the big spenders first? If I was the crabby person I am now- I would have called her out on it and left. Needless to say I wouldn't shop there again. Funny, when the economy went bad and Amazon came online- that posh store closed. I certainly wasn't treated well and was made to feel like less of a person- I didn't take anyone to court. Maybe you think we all should. Or maybe only certain groups should. I'm really not trying to be difficult- I just want to know how far you think this should go.

What will happen if everyone fears having legal action taken against them for any infraction- real or imagined? How willing will people be to hire people from a group they fear? Do you see this going well?

[marymargaret]

BTW. If you dont like being accused of being a Faux News groupie maybe you should stop using their talking points.

I'm not. I don't feel the need to accuse you of spewing CNN or MSNBC or NPR propaganda- why do you feel the need to do that to me?

[Hakurei Reimu]

So you see this situation as perfectly safe:  Even though you, the surgeon, hates me and people like me, I am going to force you to take care of me.  I am going to put my life into your hands, and require you to take care of me.  If you refuse to take care of me, you will be punished by force of law.

You see that as perfectly fine and safe?

A surgeon could hate me for any reason whatsoever, too many to cover in a single or even a series of job interviews. I don't expect a surgeon to like me, or care if he does. I expect a surgeon to be a professional, to do his job competently no matter who he may operate on.

Baking is the same way. It is a profession.

Despite what PopeyesPappy thinks, I am all about equal treatment.  That's why I am in favor of gay marriage, and also in favor of not forcing the baker to bake a cake that he doesn't want to bake.  At the same time.  Because I'm in favor of equal treatment for everyone, not just special some.

And what of the gay couple who now has no way to have a professionally done wedding cake for their special day because the bakery gave them a fuck you? And keep in mind, it's the bakery that gave them the fuck you, not any one baker in the bakery â€" if it was the latter, then another baker in that bakery would take over the job and we wouldn't even have a lawsuit in the first place. Equal treatment only applies to people, and bakeries are not people.

[PopeyesPappy]

I'm not. I don't feel the need to accuse you of spewing CNN or MSNBC or NPR propaganda- why do you feel the need to do that to me?

But you are. Calling equal rights for gays special treatment is using far right talking points.

[Shol'va]

^ Absolutely true, but it's also possible that those views are genuinely personal and just happen to overlap with the far right talking points.

[DunkleSeele]

PopeyesPappy, you are ready to punish people for thoughtcrime. 

Bollocks. The baker is still free to think whatever he wants about gays and gay marriage. Just like I have the freedom to think that religious fundamentalists are dangerous morons. I don't have the right to refuse my professional services to religious fundamentalists just because I don't like them. Simple as that.

[marymargaret]

But you are. Calling equal rights for gays special treatment is using far right talking points.

I don't recall saying that. I did say that some groups make it appear that way to others. Both, in my opinion, are too emotional to be rational.