GOP files paperwork to become wholly owned subsidiary of Koch Industries

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Fascinating! "Money talks, and BS walks." And we wonder why our government is broke---ideologies fighting ideologies of what is best for the country's people while being in a quagmire of BS? Solitary

But we're not even fighting about which ideology is best here.  The whole discussion is over the mistaken idea that what everyone knows to be two ideologies are, from his point of view, the same ideology.

[Berati]

Me: But look at how they vote
You: But they said they'd do something else, so I know they did.

Me: Here are examples of what they have actually done.
You: But they don't support gay marriage so it doesn't count.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

MeJason: Here are examples of what they have actually done.
YouBerati: But they don't support gay marriage so it doesn't count.They say something different so it doesn't count.

Fixed it for you.

They vote for more spending.  Even you can agree to that.  If you were talking to a conservative instead of a libertarian you'd mention the Regan and Bush deficits.  But you don't mention that now.  I know why you don't mention it now.  Fascinating how you  mention gay marriage though, since it must truly gall that libertarians were there long before progressives were.

As a conservative you are far too embarrassed to mention the Reagan and Bush deficits now.

[Hakurei Reimu]

They vote for more spending.  Even you can agree to that.  If you were talking to a conservative instead of a libertarian you'd mention the Regan and Bush deficits.  But you don't mention that now.

I don't think he's mentioned that, period, because his thrust wasn't about the deficit. From what I could see, Berati was mainly pointing towards deregulation, taxes, and other libertarian favorites. Sure, maybe he was engaging in a bit of hyperbole when he said that Republicans have swallowed every part of the "libertarian fantasy," but his point is clear. So why won't you say something about deregulation and stuff, instead of the deficit?

I know why you don't mention it now.

Enlighten us, because I'm sure it'll be interesting.

Fascinating how you  mention gay marriage though, since it must truly gall that libertarians were there long before progressives were.

Until you have to actually speak up against real discrimination against gays in the real world. Then you're on the side of the bigots, which is â€"you knowâ€" where the gay discrimination really exists, festers, and grows.

[Berati]

Sure, maybe he was engaging in a bit of hyperbole when he said that Republicans have swallowed every part of the "libertarian fantasy," but his point is clear. So why won't you say something about deregulation and stuff, instead of the deficit?

You hit the nail on the head however, I never said they swallowed EVERY part of the libertarian fantasy. That is what Jason is stupidly arguing. That if they don't swallow EVERY part... It doesn't count.

[Berati]

Fixed it for you.

Since when is lying fixing anything?

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Since when is lying fixing anything?

Good question.  Will you stop lying?

[Hakurei Reimu]

Wow. Snappy comeback three weeks later.

So about that deregulation stuff...

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Yes, I already addressed the "deregulation" stuff.

When a regulation is written to shield businesses from consequences, that's not deregulation, that's malregulation.  It would benefit you to learn the difference.

Someone ignoring the difference is like a Christian saying that Atheists and Satanists are synonymous.

Berati thinks that regulation is always good.  Therefore a bad regulation cannot exist and must be a deregulation.  No stain must be allowed to tarnish the reputation of his god.

[Hakurei Reimu]

Yes, I already addressed the "deregulation" stuff.

When a regulation is written to shield businesses from consequences, that's not deregulation, that's malregulation.  It would benefit you to learn the difference.

How is the repelation of parts of the Glass-Steagall act an example of "regulation being written to shield businesses from consequences?" That's an example of "deregulation" that I have in mind when I use the term â€" when government controls on businesses are removed. It's also malregulation â€" inappropriately formulated regulation, here characterized by a lack of regulation when it is needed.

Someone ignoring the difference is like a Christian saying that Atheists and Satanists are synonymous.

Berati thinks that regulation is always good.  Therefore a bad regulation cannot exist and must be a deregulation.  No stain must be allowed to tarnish the reputation of his god.

I think you are strawmanning Berati when you say this, Jason. I read the same posts you did and nowhere did he say or even imply that 'regulation is always good.' What he was pointing out was indiscriminate deregulation was bad â€" tearing down regulation just because it gets in the way of businesses is not always a good thing. The idea of proper regulation is that it prevents businesses from doing things that they shouldn't do. Only in your own mind does this mean that regulation is always good.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

In Jason's fantasy world corporations are all great citizens and wouldn't dare exploit people because there is no such thing as a corrupt libertarian...or something like that.. Of course corporations are by their very nature regulated.. Oh that dirty word again.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

In Jason's fantasy world corporations are all great citizens and wouldn't dare exploit people because there is no such thing as a corrupt libertarian...or something like that.. Of course corporations are by their very nature regulated.. Oh that dirty word again.

People who have read actual libertarian writings know that libertarians count of people acting in their own selfish interest to make things work.  We expect greed.  This contrasts sharply with philosophies that preach some sort of "new man" that is necessary to make things work.

[Hakurei Reimu]

They also count on people behaving as near-perfect agents, who decide actions to satisfy their greed according to the principles of decision theory and reason, but we know that doesn't happen. You libertarians need that "new man" because the only kind of men who can make a libertarian society work are ones that are reasonably rational in their decision making. Actual people are provably very poor on that score.

[Berati]

They also count on people behaving as near-perfect agents, who decide actions to satisfy their greed according to the principles of decision theory and reason, but we know that doesn't happen. You libertarians need that "new man" because the only kind of men who can make a libertarian society work are ones that are reasonably rational in their decision making. Actual people are provably very poor on that score.

Bingo.
Market fundamentalism fails for the same reason. The false belief that humans are logic engines. Self interest exists. Rational self interest is a pipe dream.

[Solitary]

But we're not even fighting about which ideology is best here.  The whole discussion is over the mistaken idea that what everyone knows to be two ideologies are, from his point of view, the same ideology.

Their methods may be the same, but I don't think their ideologies are the dame.