Started by josephpalazzo, December 09, 2013, 10:02:30 AM
Quote from: Notthesun on June 26, 2014, 07:05:22 PMYou know, I used to argue all the time in favor of determinism and how free will is an idea that has no sense. I used to until I saw I was wrong. Hell, until I saw that most that discuss this entire topic are wrong. The reason this entire debate has missed the mark is because since the beginning we have done nothing but mix categories of language. What do I mean? Well, for one we have a very scientific category of language. It is structural, seemingly objective, and unemotional. The the other side we have a human lens. Which tend to be based on experience, emotions, and life. So when it comes to the question of determinism and free will, I think this is where we go wrong. Determinism belongs to the physical world. What I mean is it explains the fabric of existence and the continuation of time. Yes, determinism exists. On the grand scheme of things, EVERYTHING is determined. I do not deny that. But let's not take it where it does not have to go. IF when we speak of free will we mean some sort of mechanical framework that just allows things to happen with no reason, I think we've either lost sight of what free will is or we just never understood it. Free will is not mechanical. It never has been. Free Will belongs to experience. It does and always has. Our lives, from what we choose to eat, choose to say, and whether we wash or hair or bodies first, ALL OF IT, is experienced as free. It is. You cannot deny this. No determinist, hard as s/he may try, can. We experience every waking moment of our lives as free. That is not to say that all we do is not determined. I am not saying that. I am saying that though determined, our experience of it is free. The problem we run into then is people saying, "Well, Free Will is an illusion." This is nonsense. How could you call the very lens you live life through an illusion? That makes no sense to me. I understand the desire to say this, but here we mix language and do no justice to the experience of life. What makes us human. I liken it to the question, "What is love? (Baby, don't hurt me!). If I ask two people this question, imagine these answers. Person A: Love is when chemical X and Chemical Y are released on give you feeling Z" Person B: Love is when I saw my baby for the first time. I never knew I could be born again, and I was the moment I had my first kid. Love is those random times I hold hands with my significant other just because. Love is hanging out with my friends and laughing at the stupid things that we laugh about.Here we have two definitions of love. Person A gave us a mechanical definition of love. Person B gave us an account that was derived through the experience of living and seeing love. Who is correct? Well, I would say they both are. One person gave us how love is created and what it is, the other gave us what we experience as love. Neither is false. One isn't an illusion. So what I am saying here is we must do justice to what it means to be human. Our lives may be determined, but our experience of what is has always been free. The movement of my hand may be determined, but I damn well made it move. ;)
Quote from: Aroura33 on June 28, 2014, 03:02:00 PMI didn't read past this (so likely someone already addressed this) but I wanted to say something, because every time I read this definition of the compatibilist definition, I think how meaningless it is. It just means exactly the same thing as determinism (which they even partly admit because of the whole "it doesn't interfere with determinism" bit). Why bother to even have this definition of free will? It doesn't include any meaningful use of the words choice or free, it only depends o the word will. I wanted it, therefore it happened, even though it was determined to happen and I didn't have another choice, only the one I made.
Quote from: Aroura33 on June 28, 2014, 03:13:35 PMNow THIs is the best definition of free-will I've ever heard.
QuoteHowever, just because we currently mostly experience it as free, however, if you really pay attention to life as you experience it, you will notice that often we actually do feel not in control of our own situation.
Quote from: Shol'va on December 09, 2013, 02:42:08 PMI'm still on the fence regarding determinism. It has very valid and compelling points.But ... how is spontaneity accounted for? Sam Harris then has a point, and I can be on board with that. It's not all determinism or free will, it likely falls somewhere in between.
Quote from: SGOS on June 30, 2014, 12:18:09 PMI like this. It might be the first thing I ever read that makes sense in this never ending debate.
Quote from: Notthesun on July 01, 2014, 02:58:10 AMI'd like to say that I think what I said is a more informative answer to the debate that anything Sam Harris could say. Harris' comment is a lazy way of putting it.
Quote from: Notthesun on July 01, 2014, 03:39:29 PMIf you go one page back and see my first post,
Quote I think you may like the answer.