Morality

[Contemporary Protestant]

Exactly why I don't think they're a shining example of Christianity

If Christian is defined as someone who follows the tenets of the New Testament

[Mister Agenda]

I'll restate my point

Christianity isn't that bad because many movements came from Christianity such as abolition in Britian and America

Christianity isn't that bad compared to some things. It isn't that good compared to some other things.

Atheism doesn't have a good track record either, Stalin, pol pot, Mao Zedong, hiro hito (maybe)

I have as much to do with those people because I am atheist as you do with Osama bin Laden because you're theist. You're comparing apples and oranges, atheism with Christianity. They're different kinds of things. The propler comparison would be atheism with theism, or a specific atheist philosophy with a specific religion. If you want to compare communism with Christianity, fine, but doesn't directly relate to us, not many communists here. A more relevant comparison would be humanism and Christianity.

I don't think using the actions of people to judge their ideals isn't fair

I think using the actions of communists to judge the ideals of noncommunists may be a tad unfair.

Especially considering the teachings of Jesus advocate peace

While the actions (and votes) of Christians fall short of advocating peace on a routine basis, and you can dispute Jesus's consistency on advocating peace, sure. The Buddha advocated peace, too. It's easy to advocate, hard to get people to live by.

[Contemporary Protestant]

I mentioned those regimes to highlight how ridiculous it is to make comparisons, I'm not a crusader, nor am I an inquisitor

Likewise you are not a soviet

[Mister Agenda]

I'm going to try and answer your question, I don't have an answer now but I will try and find one


Btw South Korea has very high suicide rates, not a great example of the way things should be

I'll take a high suicide rate over a high murder rate any day.

[Contemporary Protestant]

If you're referring to the United States, I need to clarify something

If inner cities are excluded, then The United States is quite safe

[Mister Agenda]

Exactly why I don't think they're a shining example of Christianity

If Christian is defined as someone who follows the tenets of the New Testament

I think this is the most useful definition:


1a :  one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus

Else you can define anyone whose actions you find repugnant as 'not actually a Christian'. Hitler wasn't a good Christian, he wasn't a mainstream Christian, and he didn't think much of mainstream Christianity...but the only justification for excluding him from the ranks of Christendom entirely is that he doesn't make Christians look good. I can make at least as good a case that Mao and Pol Pot weren't really atheists.

[Mister Agenda]

If you're referring to the United States, I need to clarify something

If inner cities are excluded, then The United States is quite safe

Every country is safe if you exclude the dangerous parts from consideration.

[La Dolce Vita]

Sin is bad, i consider it a tragic truth

Why is "sin" bad? Are there any logical reasons, or is it just because your bible (that cannot support it's claims) tells you that this is god's (subjective) opinion?

I think people whose compasses are out of sync are damaged, for example, child soldiers in Africa have been taken, brain washed, and tortured. I wouldn't expect someone to come out of that without being hurt in a profound way.

Out of sync with what? Your ideology? So everyone are born with/develops your inherent sense of morality, and then it's distorted? There is nothing implying this, and the fact that it appears you are stating that everyone who disagrees with you are just damaged is one heck of an insulting cop-out. At least you conceded that people don't know right from wrong if they are "damaged", which contradicts the previous argument you made that everyone knows right from wrong.

Interesting that you bring up these concepts, because I would apply them to Christianity. It takes concepts and actions that are inherently good and makes people see them as bad through indoctrination/brainwashing.

Also, remember a few pages ago when you said this:

I just ask that my beliefs be tolerated, and not called immoral. I consider myself and my beliefs at least decent and it's upsetting when a stranger tries to say otherwise

Why is it problematic when we point to things we find immoral about your beliefs, when you don't seem to find it problematic that your religion have concepts such as sin, which for example brands entire lifestyles (that are not only harmless but bring joy and happiness to people's lives) as immoral?

[stromboli]

Why is it problematic when we point to things we find immoral about your beliefs, when you don't seem to find it problematic that your religion have concepts such as sin, which for example brands entire lifestyles (that are not only harmless but bring joy and happiness to people's lives) as immoral?

^ this. Religions have no problem laying down judgment on anybody for any reason. It doesn't take much time in a history book to figure that out. I have no reservations on calling religion out for its transgressions because they certainly have no reservations on calling everybody else out for theirs.

[Contemporary Protestant]

Is it reasonable for me to request that I be considered an individual

Because I refrain from judging others, and respect other choice/freedoms

I admitted that I was incorrect in saying everyone knows right from wrong because people can be brainwashed or suffer from mental illness, that is what I meant nay damaged

Im completely open to the possibility that I am wrong

Yes I consider sin a bad thing, especially an external sin because it hurts another person, all sin is equal before God, but that doesn't mean killing someone is the same as hating someone

I'm not judgemental, and I don't claim to have all the answers

How is Mao not an atheist?

[ApostateLois]

How was Hitler not a Christian? He believed he was acting in accordance with God's will by exterminating the Jews. He had "God With Us" inscribed on the belt buckles of his Nazi soldiers. See, the problem is that there are as many different kinds of Christianity as there are Christians. Ask any two of them what they believe about the Bible, and chances are they won't agree on everything...yet they ALL claim they are being guided by the Holy Spirit. This is very confusing to me. Is the Holy Spirit telling all these nice people different things, or are some of them misinterpreting what God is telling them? How does the Holy Spirit speak to people, anyway--a voice in their heads? Usually, hearing voices is cause for alarm. At any rate, if even Christians can't agree on the Bible's teachings, I see no reason to take their religion, or their holy book, seriously. Sure, some of them do nice things, but the same can be said of anyone, anywhere in the world, no matter their beliefs. Not all Muslims are terrorists with bombs strapped to their children's bodies, that doesn't mean I believe Islam to be a force of good in the world.

[La Dolce Vita]

Is it reasonable for me to request that I be considered an individual

Actually no, not in the way you want to at least. You are presenting yourself as a member of a specific ideology, and you are presenting said ideology. You, of course, are an individual, and will be treated as such, but the views you are presenting is a part of a larger whole.

Because I refrain from judging others, and respect other choice/freedoms

You said "sin is bad", there appears to be a contradiction here, unless you believe that only you can "sin". Sin = immorality, and if you view someone/acts they do as immoral, you are judging them. There is no way to get around that.

I admitted that I was incorrect in saying everyone knows right from wrong because people can be brainwashed or suffer from mental illness, that is what I meant nay damaged

Am I brainwashed and damaged? I appear to have a different sense of right and wrong from you. You seem to have defined this as only being possible if brainwashed and damaged. You do see how that's insulting, right?

Yes I consider sin a bad thing, especially an external sin because it hurts another person, all sin is equal before God, but that doesn't mean killing someone is the same as hating someone

I agree that anything that hurts another person is bad (on certain condition of course, a serial killer being hurt due to the victim running way isn't bad for instance) - but as things that hurts others are just "especially bad", does that mean that something can be bad/immoral if it has no negative consequences to anyone else? How?

I'm not judgemental

Well, you have basically stated that we're all brainwashed/damaged, that you believe in the concept of sin (judging by definition) and that something that hurts no one can be immoral. All of this seems very judgmental.

[Contemporary Protestant]

I didn't mean it that way, I don't think y'all are immoral, nor would i consider y'all damaged

I'm sorry if I offended anyone, that wasn't my intention

Apparently my understanding is flawed and I need time to reevaluate

[Solitary]

You have never offended me. I think you are really trying to understand how atheists can be moral without God. I'm trying to understand how theist can be moral when they can use Scripture to be immoral, especially unethical in their business dealings.  Solitary

[PickelledEggs]

I'll take a high suicide rate over a high murder rate any day.

I'd rather neither...