An introduction and maybe some questions

[the_antithesis]

We are broken, wretched people. But for many of us, that is why we are at church--or perhaps more accurately, why we are believers. We need a doctor and we have found one and he has asked us to join his family.

That's a technique known as "grooming" that is used by pedophiles to gain a child's trust. The predator breaks down the victim's self esteem and then rebuilds it with themselves as the center of their victims sense of self worth.

I am sorry, but you have been manipulated and abused your entire life.

I hope you get better.

[SB Leader]

^^You are probably right. I should clarify my terms: The Gospel has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society. Religions often bring more oppression and rules, but bringing a message bears no strings.

[Hydra009]

By that logic, I belong to the Church of Shut the Fuck Up.

If I were a millionaire, I would fund this enough to make this a reality.  Our places of worship would be unadorned save for "silentium est aureum" stenciled above the main archway.  Silent services would be held 24/7 with people allowed to come and go as they please.  Our commercials would simply be dead air followed by a small logo/slogan.

[Hydra009]

The Gospel has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society.

The Greeks, Native Americans, Africans, Japanese, etc would disagree.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

because EVERBODY knows that going from a goat herder to a GOD is a sacrifice


cough cough---bullshit--cough cough

I was thinking,  Awww, how special. I wish I could have someone killed just for me.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

The Greeks, Native Americans, Africans, Japanese, etc would disagree.

The Jews probably object too.

[La Dolce Vita]

Perhaps it isn't an experiment but an allowance. If man is truly allowed to be free then all of his actions must be allowed to have their consequences--good or bad. I think part of what makes a human *human* is an ability to make choices, but I think those choices have results. Hurt exists in our world because of the wrong that man has done.

What about all the hurt by natural processes? Birth defects, diseases, natural disasters, etc. When a young child dies of a birth defect it has suffered with for 2-3 years, that's a great allowance?

Btw, we don't have free will(our consciousness is a product of our brain, and based on wiring, chemicals, etc. it creates our thoughts), but let's say we did, we still don't have unlimited free will in your worldview. We can't kill people with our minds. We can't fly by ourselves. Why couldn't a competent god have created a world were we had "free will", but people were actually protected to some degree? This was the best design he could do?

I agree that blind faith is not good. If we just choose to follow whatever we want with no vision whatsoever we are in for a wild ride. But Christians would say that faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. There is a confidence that is based in a certain revealed knowledge.

Which you cannot show or demonstrate, and is therefor valueless. Why has none of this been revealed to me? The confidence you have here is blind faith. And it is dangerous!

We all demonstrate faith everyday. Do you believe Australia exists? Of course, you probably do. Have you ever been there? If not then what you know about that place is based on what others have reported to you. You choose whether you trust them or not (Which you probably do). So faith, when seen in that light, probably is not so dangerous.

This is NOT faith. Australia demonstrably exists within our world. I know people who live there. I have seen pictures, films, maps. If I chose so I could have studied there. Everything implies Australia to exist. Therefor we accept that Australia exists. Also, if I wanted to, I could go there, right now. Just jump on a plane. I have never heard a single person offer any reason why I should not believe Australia exists. The evidence is rather extreme.

Nothing implies your god exists, in fact we know he doesn't exist, therefor one should not believe in this god, and believing in it is blind faith. And keep in mind that the muslims feel exactly like you. As does the followers of any other monotheistic religion. They have the same evidence and experiences as you - and only one of them could possibly be right - and as all but one has to be wrong and has gotten to this point, chances are, they are all wrong.

Also, I know countries exists. I have lived in two of them, visited more. I have never known or visited a god. You do see the distinction, right? A god claim is an extraordinary claim. The existence of Australia is not.

I have actually never heard about Jews being polytheistic, and I would curious to read more. Do you have any resources I could examine for that?

Here's a simple and short examination of the traces of said polytheism/henotheism in the bible itself: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2013/02/polytheism-in-the-bible/

If you have little time on your hand you can just read Wikipedia, though obviously that's not a tool that should be trusted completely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Semitic_religion

You should easily be able to find books on the subject if you're really interested.

But I think we can agree that certain standards are universally recognized. Child rape is wrong, so is murder. I think these standards transcend a certain religion and are true for all humanity.

Good, because your bible promotes both. Granted, not in the context of catholic priests, but the old testament specifically tells you to, in war, kill all the men and non-virgin women, and take the virgin women yourself. A commandment directly from your god, if we believe the book. He also commanded the deaths of children! Great guy.

There is an innate sense of right and wrong in everyone. I don't believe that to be a coincidence--Something or Someone who valued Good must have placed that on our hearts.

We all have empathy, save sociopaths mind you. In fact all mammals as far as I'm aware have empathy. It's an evolutionary trait that benefits the reproduction of our genes. Morality itself develops from this within society and individuals.

Your claim that this innate sense of right and wrong being from your god should be apparently wrong by his own books! Furthermore all these people with "innate morals" have different morals. I'm sure many of the moral truths I feel most strongly in "my heart" are morals you'd disagree with based on your "innate" morality.

Christianity has historically been a harbinger of peace and freedom when brought to a society. You might be interested in this article.

My ancestor's half-brother was actually the king who brought christianity to Norway. He did so by torturing and killing everyone who said a word against it. Witch burnings continued for hundreds of years, as did killing everyone who dared speak against it.

[the_antithesis]

Religions often bring more oppression and rules, but bringing a message bears no strings.

Do not lie. Christianity is completely made out of strings.

[leo]

The Jews probably object too.

Buttttt Hitler was doing the god's work of exterminating the Jews. He was the best catholic and he is in heaven. Capiche ?

[SB Leader]

What about all the hurt by natural processes? Birth defects, diseases, natural disasters, etc. When a young child dies of a birth defect it has suffered with for 2-3 years, that's a great allowance?

Btw, we don't have free will(our consciousness is a product of our brain, and based on wiring, chemicals, etc. it creates our thoughts), but let's say we did, we still don't have unlimited free will in your worldview. We can't kill people with our minds. We can't fly by ourselves. Why couldn't a competent god have created a world were we had "free will", but people were actually protected to some degree? This was the best design he could do?

I would say that natural evil is still a result of man's wrongdoing. Man, being God's image bearers, was over all creation. When man sinned he separated his connection with the creator and creation, connected with man, fell along with him. The ground became filled with thorns, pain became part of our lives and natural disasters became part of our world. That is an attempt at an answer, but it is a difficult question to be sure. I apologize if I presupposed too much in my answer.

I would say a "protected" free will is not a free will at all. If we are conditioned to choose what the Creator wants us, then we become robots. God does not want machines, he wants humans and I would say that a fundamental part of our humanity is our free will. One does not give three sides to a triangle, one cannot give free will to a human. The  alternative to free will is not being a human but an animal or machine. But I feel like this is a bit outside the topic, so I will stop there.

This is NOT faith. Australia demonstrably exists within our world. I know people who live there. I have seen pictures, films, maps. If I chose so I could have studied there. Everything implies Australia to exist. Therefor we accept that Australia exists. Also, if I wanted to, I could go there, right now. Just jump on a plane. I have never heard a single person offer any reason why I should not believe Australia exists. The evidence is rather extreme.

Nothing implies your god exists, in fact we know he doesn't exist, therefor one should not believe in this god, and believing in it is blind faith. And keep in mind that the muslims feel exactly like you. As does the followers of any other monotheistic religion. They have the same evidence and experiences as you - and only one of them could possibly be right - and as all but one has to be wrong and has gotten to this point, chances are, they are all wrong.

Also, I know countries exists. I have lived in two of them, visited more. I have never known or visited a god. You do see the distinction, right? A god claim is an extraordinary claim. The existence of Australia is not.

But just because you have not known or visited a god does not mean that one does not exist. Others have known and experienced God, they have talked with Him and He has talked to them. And they have written books about him--or I should say a Book. :) I had it on good authority that God existed and when I put my faith in Him, I knew for certain that He existed. When you have experienced His presence and seen His work you cannot help but believe! I guess this is difficult to describe--I am arguing from experience which I suppose is pretty subjective. But I have found the most reasonable thing to do is to believe in God and from there I have seen all the proof I could need.

Thank you for the resources, I plan to check all of those out.

[aitm]

I have found the most reasonable thing to do is to believe in God and from there I have seen all the proof I could need.

the secret to a closed mind....is a closed mind.

[SB Leader]

No, not at all. But I do believe that we should have an open mind, not to let ideas pour in, but to search for truth. Perhaps an open mouth can be described like an open mouth--it is looking for something substantive to eat. :)

[Mermaid]

But my question is this: proselytizing is kind of inherent in every group, wouldn't you agree? If we really believe that what we believe is true, wouldn't we want others to believe that too? :)

Well, kind of. There are plenty of atheists who try to convince others to see their way of seeing things. But that is definitely not true for me. I have no desire to convert anyone. I just want to be left alone. I think proselytizing, no matter what side of the fence you sit on, is disrespectful.

[SB Leader]

Thank you for answering, Mermaid. You are being consistent and I appreciate that.

[viocjit]

Welcome to the forum ! I'll answer to all your question.

-How would you describe your religious background and church involvement?

I'm from a family of cafetaria catholic in France. My church involvement was something of rare because I was looking for the right christian denomination.
More information here : http://atheistforums.com/index.php?topic=2504.0

-To you, what is God like? Describe God. Or if you do not believe in God, then: what is important in life?
What's important in life. Being alive because many people can't be born for many reasons.

Fictive Example n°1 :
April/21/2014 :
John Luke Smith is an American from NYC. He must take an airplane for Miami to join an American called Matthew Mark Powers (a patron of his company) who will buy something of important. (A rare wine).
Mrs.Smith don't take this airplane.
The consequences are the next : He will never meet Janet Mary Pusher in the plane (this british woman will be his future wife). Therefore Paul will never born.
Mrs.Smith take this airplane.
The consequences are the next : He meet Missus Pusher. The wedding take place in 2016 and their son Paul will born in 2017.

Fictive Example n°2 :
April/21/1814 :
Eugénie Séraphine Dupont is a French woman who lived in the XIXth century in Paris and she was pregnant of two month when Jean (his husband) stabbed she with a knife in April 1814.
The consequences are the next : Theirs daughter will never born because her mother is died.

-What do you think is important and unimportant to God? (Feel free to skip if you do not believe in God, or you are welcome to speculate as well if you are agnostic)
I don't understand the question.

-What do you think it takes to be straightened out with God? (Same as above)
Same as above.

-Describe what the term Jesus Christ means to you.
See the Greek etymology in a dictionnary to know what that means for me.
If you want to know who is Jesus for me , this is not the right question.

-From your perspective, what are the major problems of churches to ?
1.I would like to know what make that the majority of churches refuse to admit the reality of evolution theory.
The catholic church (the church of pope Francis) admit evolution theory with a hypocritical manner called
theistic evolution but it admit it better than the majority of churches.

2.I would like to know what make that the majority of churches refuse to admit that some biblical events like exodud did never happened.
Some moderate Christians admit the reality about exodus.
A.Do you know this documentary with a title like "The Bible unearthed" produced by "Thierry Ragobert" ?
B.Do you know this book called "The Bible unearthed" wrote by "Israel Finkelstein" and "Neil Asher Silberman" ?
C.Do you know this documentary named "The Bible's Buried Secrets" by "Gary Glassman" ?

3.What make that in the majority of churches , we can find that the majority of worshipers did never read the whole bible of theirs biblical canon ?