Present Evidence Here II

[Plu]

Unfortunately though, without the ability to make actual predictions, your explanation of the cause of the universe is worthless at best. Show me a difference in predictions between my hypothesis that the whole "god" concept can be taken as allegorical, and your hypothesis that the "god" concept is real, and you show the world proof of god.

But you can't. Because there is no measurable difference between this universe with god, and this universe without.

[leo]

Unfortunately though, without the ability to make actual predictions, your explanation of the cause of the universe is worthless at best. Show me a difference in predictions between my hypothesis that the whole "god" concept can be taken as allegorical, and your hypothesis that the "god" concept is real, and you show the world proof of god.

But you can't. Because there is no measurable difference between this universe with god, and this universe without.

There isn't a difference between chucksterism and christianity. Both are made up.

[leo]

I like APA toothfairysm too.

[irish]

So, yes, I've made another thread to carry on from the archived one. What happens to this is up to the gods, but its here anyway, just in case. I've copied the OP from the original thread, so let the chat commence:

"We often get many theists claiming to have evidence for the god or gods they hold dear. This thread is created with the aim of allowing them to supply such evidence so that we may debate with them knowing the facts and conclusions they have drawn, and so that we may respond in kind.

So here we are. If you claim to have evidence that supports your god(s), please post it here:"

You post your evidence there is no God first.
Irish.

[Hydra009]

You post your evidence there is no God first.

The other troll beat ya to that one.  0/10 originality.

[Plu]

You post your evidence there is no God first.

I take it you still believe dragons are real? I haven't seen any evidence against them yet.

[PickelledEggs]

You post your evidence there is no God first.
Irish.

I pooped somewhere in your home right on your floor. But I cleaned it up so there was no trace of any fecal matter whatsoever and left no trace of me even being there.

Can you prove that I did or did not do this?

[AT7iLA]

before we prove God's existence let's prove the existence of a dot that exploded.

[Plu]

Yeah, at least that's a topic we're A) making actual progress on and B) seems to be generating useful results that improve people's quality of life. I wish more people would put some effort into that one :)

[Passion of Christ]

Here's some evidence for you.

http://www.online-bible.org.uk/index.htm

Unless you mean strictly scientific evidence but you'll find everything is precisely mathematically arranged and part of an orderly sequence of formation over time from galaxies to DNA.

[Sargon The Grape]

Here's some evidence for you.

http://www.online-bible.org.uk/index.htm

Unless you mean strictly scientific evidence but you'll find everything is precisely mathematically arranged and part of an orderly sequence of formation over time from galaxies to DNA.

[ Image ]

I reject your Bible site and substitute my own.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

Of all clean birds ye shall eat. But these are they of which ye shall not eat: ... the bat.--Dt.14:11, 18

God is his wisdom made the fly, and then forgot to tell us why. -- Ogden Nash

Genesis

"In the beginning"
When was the universe created?
The Gap Theory 1:1-2
The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. 1:1-2:3
God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them? 1:3-5
God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8
Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11
God lets "the earth bring forth" the plants, rather than creating them directly. Maybe Genesis is not so anti-evolution after all. 1:11
In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14
God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky? 1:16
"He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16
"And God set them [the stars] in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17
In verse 11, God "let the earth bring forth" the plants. Now he has the earth "bring forth" the animals as well. So maybe the creationists have it all wrong. Maybe God created livings things through the process of evolution. 1:24
God gave humans dominion over every other living thing on earth. 1:26
God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28
"I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat."
Since many plants have evolved poisons to protect against animals that would like to eat them, God's advice is more than a little reckless. Would you tell your children to go out in the garden and eat whatever plants they encounter? Of course not. But then, you are much nicer and smarter than God. 1:29
All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats, mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were created by God. 1:30
"God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." He purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey. 1:31
In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is 13.7 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed. 1:31
Humans were not created instantaneously from dust and breath, but evolved over millions of years from simpler life forms. 2:7
After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-22
God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs.
Because of this story, it was commonly believed (and sometimes it is still said today) that males have one less rib than females. When Vesalius showed in 1543 that the number of ribs was the same in males and females, it created a storm of controversy. 2:19
God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14
Because Adam listened to Eve, God cursed the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. Before this, according to the (false) Genesis story, plants had no natural defenses. The rose had no thorn, cacti were spineless, holly leaves were smooth, and the nettle had no sting. Foxgloves, oleander, and milkweeds were all perfectly safe to eat. 3:17-18
Seth lived 912 years. 5:8
Enos lived 905 years. 5:11
Cainan lived 910 years. 5:14
Mahalaleel lived 895 years. 5:17
Jared lived 962 years. 5:20
Enoch doesn't die he just ascends into heaven. 5:21-24
Enoch lived 365 years before he was taken (alive?) by God. 5:23
When Lamech was born, nine generations were alive at once. Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech were all alive at the time of Lamech's birth. Adam lived to see his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson. 5:25
Methuselah lived 969 years. (World record holder.) 5:27
Lamech lived 777 years. 5:31
"There were giants in the earth in those days." 6:4
God tells Noah to make one small window (18 inches square) in the 450 foot ark for ventilation. 6:14-16
Whether by twos or by sevens, Noah takes male and female representatives from each species of "every thing that creepeth upon the earth." 7:8
God opens the "windows of heaven." He does this every time it rains. 7:11
All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." 7:13-14
The flood covered the highest mountain tops (Mount Everest?) with fifteen cubits to spare. 7:20
"The windows of heaven were stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained." This happens whenever it stops raining. 8:2
Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11
When the animals left the ark, what would they have eaten? There would have been no plants after the ground had been submerged for nearly a year. What would the carnivores have eaten? Whatever prey they ate would have gone extinct. And how did the New World primates or the Australian marsupials find their way back after the flood subsided? 8:19
"And the Lord smelled a sweet savor."
Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. According to 7:8 this would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark. 8:20-21
"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth." Although this would have been good advice for the mythical Noah, it is deadly advice for humankind as a whole. Overpopulation is one of our greatest problems, yet there is nothing in the bible to address it. 9:1
According to this verse, all animals fear humans. Although it is true that many do, it is also true that some do not. Sharks and grizzly bears, for example, are generally much less afraid of us than we are of them. 9:2
"Into your hand are they (the animals) delivered." God gave the animals to humans, and they can do whatever they please with them. This verse has been used by bible believers to justify all kinds of cruelty to animals and environmental destruction. 9:2
"I do set my bow in the cloud."
God is rightly filled with remorse for having killed his creatures. He makes a deal with the animals, promising never to drown them all again. He even puts the rainbow in the sky so that whenever he sees it, it will remind him of his promise so that he won't be tempted to do it again. (Every time God sees the rainbow he says to himself: "Oh, yeah.... That's right. I promised not to drown the animals again. I guess I'll have to find something else to do.").
But rainbows are caused by the nature of light, the refractive index of water, and the shape of raindrops. There were rainbows billions of years before humans existed. 9:13
"Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided."
Some creationists believe that this verse refers to continental drift, which, they say, began to occur during the days of Pelag (which means "division"), about 100 or so years after the flood. But many other creationists disagree. 10:25
"The whole earth was of one language." But this could not be true, since by this time (around 2400 BCE) there were already many languages, each unintelligible to the others. 11:1, 6
"Now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do."
God worries that the people will succeed in building a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven, and that by so doing they will become omnipotent. 11:4-6
According to the Tower of Babel story, the many human languages were created instantaneously by God. But actually the various languages evolved gradually over long periods of time. 11:9
The ridiculously long lives of the patriarchs. 11:10-32
Shem lived 600 years. 11:12-13
Salah lived 433 years. 11:14-15
Eber lived 464 years. 11:16-17
Peleg lived 239 years. 11:18-19
Reu lived 239 years. 11:20-21
Serug lived 229 years. 11:22-23
Nahor lived 148 years. 11:24-25
And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years. 11:32
"Abram ... pursued them unto Dan."
This is an obvious anachronism, since the city of Dan was not named "Dan" until the time of the Judges (see Judges 18:29). In fact, Dan (for whom the city was named) was not even born yet (see Genesis 30:6). 14:14
"And they returned to the land of the Philistines." But the Philistines didn't arrive in the region of Canaan until around 1200 BCE -- 800 years after Abraham's supposed migration from Ur. 21:32, 26:1
Laban learns "by experience" that God has blessed him for Jacob's sake. "By experience" means "by divination", at least that is how most other versions translate this verse. 30:27
Jacob displays his (and God's) knowledge of biology by having goats copulate while looking at streaked rods. The result is streaked baby goats. 30:37-39
God (or an angel) praises Jacob for his fancy genetic work in 30:37-39. 31:11-12
Joseph and his magic divining cup. 44:5-15
Exodus

The birth story of Moses is suspiciously similar to that of the birth of Sargon, an Akkadian monarch from the 3rd millennium BCE. (BBC: The tale of the basket) 2:3
The Israelite population went from 70 (or 75) to several million in a few hundred years. 1:5,7, 12:37, 38:26
Why are some people born with disabilities? Because God deliberately makes them that way. 4:11
God killed Egyptians and their livestock by smashing them with huge hailstones mixed with fire. 9:24
God led the Israelites through the land of the Philistines, hundreds of years before the Philistines were established in Canaan. 13:17
If you do what God says, he won't send his diseases on you (like he did to the Egyptians). But otherwise.... 15:26
"The manna referred to in the Bible, in Exodus 16:14, seems to have been the dried excrement of Trabutina mannipara, a scale insect that feeds on tamarisk trees." Benjamin B. Normark, The Sex Lives of Scales, Natural History, Sept. 2004. 16:14-15
It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks. 16:35
A magical trumpet played loud while God came down in smoke, fire, and earthquakes onto Mt. Sinai. 19:16-18
"In six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them."
Believers often say that the "days" of creation should be taken allegorically, but this verse is quite clear. God created the universe in six 24 hour days. 20:11
Leviticus

The Bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they "chew the cud" but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not "chew the cud." 11:5-6
Bats are birds to the biblical God. 11:13, 19
Four-legged fowls are abominations. 11:20
Be sure to watch out for those "other flying creeping things which have four feet." (I wish God wouldn't get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You'd think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have! 11:23
God's law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 14:2-52
Numbers

The Israelite population went from seventy (Exodus 1:5) to several million (over 600,000 adult males) in 400 years. 1:45-46, 26:51
When the tabernacle was set up, it was covered by a cloud during the day and by fire all night. 9:15
God led the Israelites from one camp to the other with a cloud. When the cloud stopped and rested someplace, the Israelites pitched their tents. When the cloud started moving again, the Israelites followed it. 9:16-23
God sends quails to feed his people until they were "two cubits [about a meter] high upon the face of the earth." Taking the "face of the earth" to be a circle with a radius of say 30 kilometers (an approximate day's journey), this would amount to 3 trillion (3x1012) liters of quails. At 2 quails per liter, this would provide a couple million quails for each of several million people.
Although this story is obviously exaggerated, it may have grown from a grain of truth. Common Quail (Cotumix cotumix) migrate twice a year between Africa and Eurasia, and occasional storm-induced "fallout" could make quail appear to rain from the sky. 11:31

God strikes Miriam with leprosy. (In the Bible, leprosy is caused by the wrath of God or the malice of Satan. 12:10
"They ... cut down ... a branch with one cluster of grapes, and they bare it between two upon a staff."
A single cluster of grapes was so heavy that it took two men to carry it. I guess that's what you'd expect, though, since they were in the land of giants. (See verses 32-33.) 13:23
"And there we saw the giants ... And we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight." This statement may have been figurative, hyperbole, typical biblical exaggeration, or an actual description of the sons of Anak, in which case they must have been about 100 meters tall. These are the same giants (the Nephilium) that resulted when the "sons of God" mated with "the daughters of men in Genesis 6:4 Of course, these superhuman god-men should have been destroyed in the flood. So what are they doing still alive? 13:33
Moses hits a rock with his rod and Presto! -- water comes out. 20:11
God sends "fiery serpents" to bite his chosen people, and many of them die. 21:6
God's cure for snakebite: a brass serpent on a pole. 21:8
God has "the strength of a unicorn." Oh heck, I bet he's even stronger than a unicorn. 23:22, 24:8
"He made them wander in the wilderness forty years."
It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks. 32:13
Deuteronomy

"The people is greater and taller than we ... we have seen the sons of the Anakims there." More giants in the promised land. 1:28
It took the Israelites 40 years to travel from Egypt to Canaan, yet such a journey, even at that time, would have taken no more than a few weeks. 2:7, 8:2, 29:5
"A land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time." (They must have been much more common back then.) 2:10-11, 20-21
Og, the king of the giants, was a tall man, even by NBA standards. His bed measured 9 by 4 cubits (13.5 feet long and 6 feet wide). 3:11
God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. These nations were "greater and mightier" than the Israelites, who according to Exodus 12:37 and Numbers 1:45-46 already had numbered several million. So the region, according to the bible, must have had a population of more than twenty million! 7:1
"Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents? ... Who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint?" 8:15
"A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims."
More giants! 9:2
"When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone ... I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water." 9:9
This verse mistakenly says that the hare chews its cud. 14:7-8
To the biblical God, a bat is just an another unclean bird. 14:11, 18
"And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron." 28:23
"The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed." 28:24
"An eagle ... beareth them on her wings."
Do eagles carry their young on their wings? I know of no evidence (except for the single anecdote provided here) that they do. 32:11
"Their wine is the poison of dragons." I wonder what genus and species the bible is referring to when it mentions dragons. 32:33
Joseph's "horns are like the horns of a unicorn." 33:17



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[Passion of Christ]

I reject your Bible site and substitute my own.

I will take your rejection of a scientific literal view of the Bible and raise you one Space Gnome.

[youtube:21gzywnc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0H5JxHlOZM[/youtube:21gzywnc]

I'm aware that they used to think the Earth was flat, rested on pillars and had a firmament or glassy dome above it with all the various cosmic bodies orbiting the Earth but that's just how they saw the world with their lack of scientific knowledge. It does not mean they had no knowledge of God and his eternal relationship to the created natural order and humanity which is the subject of the Bible. So I would reject the literal interpretation of the Bible you reject though I wouldn't use it as evidence that God doesn't exist it's evidence of the limits of Bronze Age scientific understanding of the world, God isn't a scientific subject therefore there isn't a problem. You just take the universe as we understand it and look at through the lens of it being a created and purpose made natural order with all the elements made in sequence.






You have the formation of the Earth and the development of complex life over time in a pattern of sequence, basic organisms like plants come first higher forms are "brought forth" when the bio-system is ready to support them.




You have the mathematical perfection of the cosmos, the natural systems and living organisms which you can see all around you on a daily basis.



Just replace the Bronze Age depiction of the world with all this and keep God in the picture which gives you the underlying eternal and purposeful context as to why we exist and you're good to go.

[Plu]

"Just assume I'm right and use that as evidence that I'm right."

[Sargon The Grape]

[You just take the universe as we understand it and look at through the lens of it being a created and purpose made natural order with all the elements made in sequence.

This right here describes the flaw in your logic. You begin with an assumption and look for facts that fit. Your approach is the opposite of science.


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[Icarus]

You have the formation of the Earth and the development of complex life over time in a pattern of sequence, basic organisms like plants come first higher forms are "brought forth" when the bio-system is ready to support them.

Ummmm "Basic organisms like plants" No, no,no,no,no,no,no. Ophioglossaceae, a fern, has 1260 chromosomes, you have 46. Genetically speaking plants are way more complex than mammals. You see them as basic because you've formulated a conclusion without really thinking about your reasoning.