The bible(ew) teaches predestination and free will

[Shiranu]

Our perspective is irrelevant; if I program a computer to beep twice at 12:05 but it has no concept of this and thinks it's freely beeping at 12:05... it was still predetermined to beep twice at 12:05.

You either have free-will or you don't; the illusion rubbish is just a way to try to justify horrible things happening without it being god's fault.

[Solitary]

Theological flaws---how about logical flaws? Your grasp of Slick Maneuvers is astounding. You talk about time, so you must know what it is, so defined it for all of us.  :roll:    Solitary

[Passion of Christ]

Ok. so let me make sure I understand YOUR definition of pre destination before I say anything.

You define pre destination, not as something as written in stone, but just something that your god wants to happen for us?

God wants a loving relationship with us as a father or a mother would love a child. That's the full extent of his plan but for the plan to work we must have our own freedom to accept or reject God. If we had no freedom of will then the relationship wouldn't be based on love. Pre-destination comes in because there is only going to be one future like we only have one past though of course we have no idea what the future is we haven't written it yet. God knows what we will write the same way we know what say Julius Caesar wrote, it doesn't mean Julius had no freewill at the time he was alive just because we know everything he did now in what is the future for him but the present day for us.

Basically "his best case scenario" not his "this is what will happen"?

He already knows what happens but we get to decide what happens not God. God can of course help to guide his wayward children along in such a way that doesn't require force.

[PickelledEggs]

Ok. so let me make sure I understand YOUR definition of pre destination before I say anything.

You define pre destination, not as something as written in stone, but just something that your god wants to happen for us?

God wants a loving relationship with us as a father or a mother would love a child. That's the full extent of his plan but for the plan to work we must have our own freedom to accept or reject God. If we had no freedom of will then the relationship wouldn't be based on love. Pre-destination comes in because there is only going to be one future like we only have one past though of course we have no idea what the future is we haven't written it yet. God knows what we will write the same way we know what say Julius Caesar wrote, it doesn't mean Julius had no freewill at the time he was alive just because we know everything he did now in what is the future for him but the present day for us.

Basically "his best case scenario" not his "this is what will happen"?

He already knows what happens but we get to decide what happens not God. God can of course help to guide his wayward children along in such a way that doesn't require force.

Ok. so basically your first part was a load of crap that doesn't actually say anything.

But going by the second part, you basically say that your god knows if we are going to "disobey him" or not and which ones of us are allowed in to his house at the end of our life.

If you are saying he already knows which ones of us are already going to heaven and which are going to hell, that isn't free will. That's a grumpy old man watching episodes of CSI.... that he wrote. He knows who is going to be "good" and who is going to be "bad" already because it's predetermined. He is just spectating our demise.

Basically, going by your definition of free will, god is an asshole, TV drama writer.

[Passion of Christ]

Ok. so basically your first part was a load of crap that doesn't actually say anything.

Atheists have to learn that simply stating their own opinion as fact doesn't make it a fact. If you think something is crap that's fine but you will still have to explain why you believe that to be the case.

But going by the second part, you basically say that your god knows if we are going to "disobey him" or not and which ones of us are allowed in to his house at the end of our life.

God knew that Adolf Hitler would reject him and do what he did. He still loves Adolf Hitler and feels pity for him as he will at this point be in hell which a separation from God. Unless he comes to repent his sins and accept God but hell is for people who won't ever be interested in all that hogwash. See Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the rich man you'll note the rich man doesn't demand to be freed from hell he only demands Lazarus serve him as he did in life though he no longer has any power to order anyone to do anything. This personal loss is a great torment for him as this is something he based his life upon, wealth, luxury and power over others. This is what made him happy in life and what he no longer has in death.

If you are saying he already knows which ones of us are already going to heaven and which are going to hell, that isn't free will.

Adolf Hitler had the freewill to do everything we know he did. No-one made him do all that it was his own choice to be a thoroughly evil hate filled psychotic killing maniac. A life of hate will get you a ticket into hell but that's where you decide you want to go God allows you to choose. Though he would really rather you didn't because he loves you, and loves everyone else including Adolf Hitler, he didn't love what he did of course. If Adolf Hitler was to ask God to forgive him of his sins then he would be fully forgiven that's the grace that's on offer.

That's a grumpy old man watching episodes of CSI.... that he wrote. He knows who is going to be "good" and who is going to be "bad" already because it's predetermined. He is just spectating our demise.

We're all bad as we fall short of perfection but God is prepared to forgive us of all our sin including Adolf Hitler if he's interested, he would be reborn through the Holy Spirit if he does. Bear in mind that life doesn't end at the grave we are essentially fully immortal beings made in Gods image, who happen to currently have mortal physical bodies but this is Gods gift. Accepting Gods grace while you're still alive leads to a spiritual rebirth and the benefits that would come from that for yourself and the good you will do for others so you don't necessarily have to "wait until you're dead" to do this. The sooner the better is a rule of thumb for anything that is worth doing.

Basically, going by your definition of free will, god is an asshole, TV drama writer.

God is 100% perfect and we in fact are the assholes you got this wrong way around. Some people are more of an asshole than others but God is prepared to forgive everyone equally. This is all authentic Christian theology btw don't worry about what certain fundamentalists would have you believe.

[PickelledEggs]

Ok. so basically your first part was a load of crap that doesn't actually say anything.

Atheists have to learn that simply stating their own opinion as fact doesn't make it a fact. If you think something is crap that's fine but you will still have to explain why you believe that to be the case.

But going by the second part, you basically say that your god knows if we are going to "disobey him" or not and which ones of us are allowed in to his house at the end of our life.

God knew that Adolf Hitler would reject him and do what he did. He still loves Adolf Hitler and feels pity for him as he will at this point be in hell which a separation from God. Unless he comes to repent his sins and accept God but hell is for people who won't ever be interested in all that hogwash. See Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the rich man you'll note the rich man doesn't demand to be freed from hell he only demands Lazarus serve him as he did in life though he no longer has any power to order anyone to do anything. This personal loss is a great torment for him as this is something he based his life upon, wealth, luxury and power over others. This is what made him happy in life and what he no longer has in death.

If you are saying he already knows which ones of us are already going to heaven and which are going to hell, that isn't free will.

Adolf Hitler had the freewill to do everything we know he did. No-one made him do all that it was his own choice to be a thoroughly evil hate filled psychotic killing maniac. A life of hate will get you a ticket into hell but that's where you decide you want to go God allows you to choose. Though he would really rather you didn't because he loves you, and loves everyone else including Adolf Hitler, he didn't love what he did of course. If Adolf Hitler was to ask God to forgive him of his sins then he would be fully forgiven that's the grace that's on offer.

That's a grumpy old man watching episodes of CSI.... that he wrote. He knows who is going to be "good" and who is going to be "bad" already because it's predetermined. He is just spectating our demise.

We're all bad as we fall short of perfection but God is prepared to forgive us of all our sin including Adolf Hitler if he's interested, he would be reborn through the Holy Spirit if he does. Bear in mind that life doesn't end at the grave we are essentially fully immortal beings made in Gods image, who happen to currently have mortal physical bodies but this is Gods gift. Accepting Gods grace while you're still alive leads to a spiritual rebirth and the benefits that would come from that for yourself and the good you will do for others so you don't necessarily have to "wait until you're dead" to do this. The sooner the better is a rule of thumb for anything that is worth doing.

Basically, going by your definition of free will, god is an asshole, TV drama writer.

God is 100% perfect and we in fact are the assholes you got this wrong way around. Some people are more of an asshole than others but God is prepared to forgive everyone equally. This is all authentic Christian theology btw don't worry about what certain fundamentalists would have you believe.

lol at all the ridiculousness you just typed.

[josephpalazzo]

We're all bad as we fall short of perfection but God is prepared to forgive us of all our sin including Adolf Hitler if he's interested, he would be reborn through the Holy Spirit if he does.

So that means after shooting himself, if Hitler had a fraction of a second to live and asked to be forgiven, he would be right now in heavens, praising Jesus for eternity.

Nice theory you've got there!

[Passion of Christ]

lol at all the ridiculousness you just typed.

Perhaps it's ridiculous to you because you have a ridiculous belief yourself? The universe brought itself into existence from nothing for no reason and everything was perfectly set for life by coincidence was it? You can see why only 2% of the world by into this madness.

[Moralnihilist]

lol at all the ridiculousness you just typed.

Perhaps it's ridiculous to you because you have a ridiculous belief yourself? The universe brought itself into existence from nothing for no reason and everything was perfectly set for life by coincidence was it? You can see why only 2% of the world by into this madness.

You do know that the universe is more likely to kill us than help us live, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4238NN8HMgQ

Heres a free science lesson :)

[leo]

Passion of the christ

Atheists have to learn that simply stating their own opinion as fact doesn't make it a fact. If you think something is crap that's fine but you will still have to explain why you believe that to be the case.                                                                                                                                                                                                
That's funny because that's exactly what you and theists are doing all the time . Stating opinions as facts without evidence .
Passion of the christ

God knew that Adolf Hitler would reject him and do what he did. He still loves Adolf Hitler and feels pity for him as he will at this point be in hell which a separation from God. Unless he comes to repent his sins and accept God but hell is for people who won't ever be interested in all that hogwash. See Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the rich man you'll note the rich man doesn't demand to be freed from hell he only demands Lazarus serve him as he did in life though he no longer has any power to order anyone to do anything. This personal loss is a great torment for him as this is something he based his life upon, wealth, luxury and power over others. This is what made him happy in life and what he no longer has in death.
Yahveh created hitler knowing the horrible actions he will do againt the jews . Where is the free will of the jews ? They choose to suffer and die in the holocaust?  Yahvew look like a asshole to me.

Passion of the christ

Adolf Hitler had the freewill to do everything we know he did. No-one made him do all that it was his own choice to be a thoroughly evil hate filled psychotic killing maniac. A life of hate will get you a ticket into hell but that's where you decide you want to go God allows you to choose. Though he would really rather you didn't because he loves you, and loves everyone else including Adolf Hitler, he didn't love what he did of course. If Adolf Hitler was to ask God to forgive him of his sins then he would be fully forgiven that's the grace that's on offer.
That's bullshit . You don't know the mind of Adolf hitler and the causes of his madness.

Passion of the christ

We're all bad as we fall short of perfection but God is prepared to forgive us of all our sin including Adolf Hitler if he's interested, he would be reborn through the Holy Spirit if he does. Bear in mind that life doesn't end at the grave we are essentially fully immortal beings made in Gods image, who happen to currently have mortal physical bodies but this is Gods gift. Accepting Gods grace while you're still alive leads to a spiritual rebirth and the benefits that would come from that for yourself and the good you will do for others so you don't necessarily have to "wait until you're dead" to do this. The sooner the better is a rule of thumb for anything that is worth doing.
God isn't perfect . He is in fact a asshole. Read your fucking bible !
Passion oft the christ

God is 100% perfect and we in fact are the assholes you got this wrong way around. Some people are more of an asshole than others but God is prepared to forgive everyone equally. This is all authentic Christian theology btw don't worry about what certain fundamentalists would have you believe.[/quote][/quote]
Bullshit your god isn't perfect . The proof ? The bible itself.

[PickelledEggs]

Let's break this down, bit by bit.

Atheists have to learn that simply stating their own opinion as fact doesn't make it a fact. If you think something is crap that's fine but you will still have to explain why you believe that to be the case.

Just because I added that you dumped a load of crap, doesn't take away from the fact that you didn't say anything.

God knew that Adolf Hitler would reject him and do what he did. He still loves Adolf Hitler and feels pity for him as he will at this point be in hell which a separation from God. Unless he comes to repent his sins and accept God but hell is for people who won't ever be interested in all that hogwash. See Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the rich man you'll note the rich man doesn't demand to be freed from hell he only demands Lazarus serve him as he did in life though he no longer has any power to order anyone to do anything. This personal loss is a great torment for him as this is something he based his life upon, wealth, luxury and power over others. This is what made him happy in life and what he no longer has in death.

Hitler was doing your gods work, your holy books are filled with genocide that god orders and even conducts himself.

Adolf Hitler had the freewill to do everything we know he did. No-one made him do all that it was his own choice to be a thoroughly evil hate filled psychotic killing maniac. A life of hate will get you a ticket into hell but that's where you decide you want to go God allows you to choose. Though he would really rather you didn't because he loves you, and loves everyone else including Adolf Hitler, he didn't love what he did of course. If Adolf Hitler was to ask God to forgive him of his sins then he would be fully forgiven that's the grace that's on offer.

*see my last statement* He didn't think he was sinning. He thought he was doing a good thing by doing gods work

We're all bad as we fall short of perfection but God is prepared to forgive us of all our sin including Adolf Hitler if he's interested, he would be reborn through the Holy Spirit if he does. Bear in mind that life doesn't end at the grave we are essentially fully immortal beings made in Gods image, who happen to currently have mortal physical bodies but this is Gods gift. Accepting Gods grace while you're still alive leads to a spiritual rebirth and the benefits that would come from that for yourself and the good you will do for others so you don't necessarily have to "wait until you're dead" to do this. The sooner the better is a rule of thumb for anything that is worth doing.

All any of us on here would need to "accept god's grace was some hard evidence. If you have any, you can post it here

God is 100% perfect and we in fact are the assholes you got this wrong way around. Some people are more of an asshole than others but God is prepared to forgive everyone equally. This is all authentic Christian theology btw don't worry about what certain fundamentalists would have you believe.

Perfect, eh? With all the murderers, violence, genocide, prejudice, oppression, racism, sexism, hate, etc that STILL goes on and all the people going to hell, it seems the title "perfect" has a huge amount of leniency.

[Passion of Christ]

So that means after shooting himself, if Hitler had a fraction of a second to live and asked to be forgiven, he would be right now in heavens, praising Jesus for eternity.

Hitler can ask to be forgiven at any time he has an eternity in which to do it. Chances are he never will because he won't accept he did anything wrong and it was all the work of the Jews and whatever. Hitler won't be interested in the Christian God or anything about love and forgiveness or that prissy weak twaddle he's about power and domination.

Nice theory you've got there!

This is authentic Christian theology not my theory you can read/learn about it all yourself. Some Christians like the Westboro Baptists will disagree and have other less than savory opinions of course but don't worry about them. They aren't representative of Christianity Jesus Christ and what he taught would be representative of the real thing.

[Passion of Christ]

You do know that the universe is more likely to kill us than help us live, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4238NN8HMgQ

Do realize how pace-palmingly ridiculous it is to state that the universe is hostile to life when the universe itself is the reason you are alive to begin with? The universe is 100% ideal for the formation of life else there wouldn't be any life. The universe is an incredibly complicated and naturally balanced process that involves absolute mathematical perfection to operate the way it does. And you're saying it was all some kind of an accident or that it's "hostile to life". The universe isn't hostile to life we just have narrow survival parameters because we are complex living systems with hugely complex environmental requirements. We can't walk around on the surface of Mars without a spacesuit because Mars doesn't have these environmental requirements we need the Earth has that. However we can broaden our survivable range via technology, that's how we colonized the Earths surface and ventured into space and down into deep ocean trenches.  

Heres a free science lesson :)

It's you who need a lesson in theology and philosophy my scientific knowledge of the universe is perfectly fine and no worse than yours.

[leo]

So that means after shooting himself, if Hitler had a fraction of a second to live and asked to be forgiven, he would be right now in heavens, praising Jesus for eternity.

Hitler can ask to be forgiven at any time he has an eternity in which to do it. Chances are he never will because he won't accept he did anything wrong and it was all the work of the Jews and whatever. Hitler won't be interested in the Christian God or anything about love and forgiveness or that prissy weak twaddle he's about power and domination.

Nice theory you've got there!

This is authentic Christian theology not my theory you can read/learn about it all yourself. Some Christians like the Westboro Baptists will disagree and have other less than savory opinions of course but don't worry about them. They aren't representative of Christianity Jesus Christ and what he taught would be representative of the real thing.

That's bullshit actually . According to orthodox christianity people that in hell will never be forgiven . People that are in hell will never leave hell.  What a nice and kind god ! Infinite hell for finite crimes.

[PickelledEggs]

You do know that the universe is more likely to kill us than help us live, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4238NN8HMgQ

Do realize how pace-palmingly ridiculous it is to state that the universe is hostile to life when the universe itself is the reason you are alive to begin with? The universe is 100% ideal for the formation of life else there wouldn't be any life. The universe is an incredibly complicated and naturally balanced process that involves absolute mathematical perfection to operate the way it does. And you're saying it was all some kind of an accident or that it's "hostile to life". The universe isn't hostile to life we just have narrow survival parameters because we are complex living systems with hugely complex environmental requirements. We can't walk around on the surface of Mars without a spacesuit because Mars doesn't have these environmental requirements we need the Earth has that. However we can broaden our survivable range via technology, that's how we colonized the Earths surface and ventured into space and down into deep ocean trenches.  

Heres a free science lesson :)

It's you who need a lesson in theology and philosophy my scientific knowledge of the universe is perfectly fine and no worse than yours.

Please educate yourself. I beg of you.