The bible(ew) teaches predestination and free will

[Shol'va]

I'm not sure where you get that idea from certainly right the way back through the entire extent of human history people seem to have believed in "something" beyond the natural physical order.

Correct. But belief in something does not prove it actually exists.
Our propensity to believe in a god appears to be hardwired and is nicely explained by evolutionary psychology. What material have you read in regards to the explanation as to why people tend to believe in a higher power?
Belief is not evidence for existence. It is evidence of belief and nothing more, so you did not actually offer a rebuttal to that point.

I'd suggest it works the other way around, the material universe is a product of consciousness, that being God in this case.

You can suggest anything you wish. That's not the point. The point is we are at the part where you are supposed to present evidence.

[josephpalazzo]

1. Evidence for god historically does not exist.

I'm not sure where you get that idea from certainly right the way back through the entire extent of human history people seem to have believed in "something" beyond the natural physical order.

And those people in ancient times were extremely ignorant. It's not until Galileo put science on the map, circa 1600's, that we started to make advancement in knowledge with technical progress. If you want to believe that sickness is God's punishment, or a woman's menstrual period is God's curse, and so many other superstitions that you find among the ancient people, including all that nonsense in the bible, it's a free country, but presenting that stupidity as evidence speaks loudly about your state of mind. And if you think you are going to convince anyone here on this forum, think again. We've seen all these idiotic arguments, they've been debunked many times, and we're just having fun with you, but if you want to be the laughing stock, hey, go ahead, entertain us.

[Moralnihilist]

Quote1. Evidence for god historically does not exist.


I'm not sure where you get that idea from certainly right the way back through the entire extent of human history people seem to have believed in "something" beyond the natural physical order. It's not like the Bible just fell out of the sky one day and everyone was an atheist/naturalist before that point. You can see what liters the landscape, so certainly God has always been part of human history and here is your physical evidence that. Some cultures fall into idolatry but you can see the Bible as a treatise against that practice.

Belief does not equal proof. Again you are confusing the two.

The bibles claims of world  wide floods

Oh that's the flood myth story every culture throughout history seems to have had one. This is undoubtedly goes deep into the human psyche. In the Biblical context you can see it as symbolic for God washing away your stain of sin allowing you to be spiritually reborn and cleansed anew. It's also technically possible that there was some kind of mass flooding event certainly the melting of the icecaps after the last ice age did cause something like that to happen. Or you have stories based on various localized events that's possible as well.

Here are some of the facts which render the flood story impossible:

1.due to factors such as the speed of the water current, no trees could have survived the flood. yet, individual trees have been found that are 6,000 and even 10,000 years old, and a tree colony exists today which dates back over 80,000 years. noahs ark was 4000 years ago.

2. genetic variation can be measured in species thereby  shedding light on their history. cheetahs, for example have so little variation that they are all essentially inbred. scientists estimate that the cheetah population dwindled to possibly as few as 500 approx. 10,000 years ago. almost all other living species show differentiation at such a higher level that their lineage can be traced to dates far earlier. humans through DNA can be traced to common parentage over 100,000 years ago. it is completely scientifically implausible that all living things achieved their measured levels of genetic differentiation from just TWO mates, a mere 4000 years ago.

3. neglecting the impossibility of fitting the millions of species on a single boat that could never have floated nor been designed nor built with available technology, engineering and tools, by a few men , in that short time.......
there was no time to collect the species. noah and family would have had to collect over 300,000 beetles. yup, just beetles. and they collected them from all over the world. and what about the 1,000,000 species of insects? again, from all over the world. sound likely?

4. many species can only survive in their climate. polar bears would not have survived the trip. neither would many species from warmer climates. not only did they make it to the ark, but noah must have had some wonderful refrigeration and heating set-up aboard the mighty ship.

5.was the water freshwater or saltwater?
if fresh, no saltwater fish would have survived to exist today. if saltwater, no freshwater fish today.

6.how did animals that cant fly or swim get from mt. ararat in asia to australia? there are many species which exist only there.

7.light doesnt penetrate the ocean more than about 500 ft. if the earth were submerged under 29,000 ft. in order to cover mt. everest, no marine plant life would have survived.

i'll stop here. there are many more.

mass exodus of jews from EgyptYes it does seem like they dramatized the story a bit, the whole region was under the dominion of the Egyptian empire and the Egyptians did use slaves. Also of interest is that Moses is an Egyptian not a Jewish name. Had he been entirely fictional that seems like a strange thing for the Jews to have given him. The plagues of Egypt are kind of interesting as they seem to match with the events of a volcanic eruption from the darkened skies, plagues of animals, failed crops and the river Nile turning to blood. There apparently is some archaeological to support this as well which is kind of interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sawWSvHjqEE

, the supposed crucifixion of jesus, jesus's(as he existed in the bible, i.e. miracle worker) existence, the resurrection
There were plenty of other people alive at the time who were said to be able to perform miracles and heal people. Jesus does seem to have a lot more miracles associated with himself. While these things do seem kind of out of the ordinary to us today we haven't necessarily demonstrated that there isn't something beyond the natural order to allow such powers to take place. Interestingly this isn't the kind of thing that happened and then stopped the baffling and the strange is still with us today. Certainly many weird and wonderful accounts of truly experiences and events that baffle science you can read about outside the Bible. The resurrection is absolutely crucial to Christian belief of course.

Even though jesus supposedly preformed all the miracles there is no record of this outside of the bible. No historians of the age, of which there were many, managed to record a single instance of this supposed miracle working. Odd isn't it? That a group of people would think of recording normal things like birth records, yearly crop yields. And yet nobody thought hey this guy can restore sight to the blind, I should write this down.

Quote virgin birth

That's always been an open question in Christianity the Catholic Church only accepted the virgin birth as dogma in the 19th century. It does seem like an archetypal hero myth, anyone who was anyone in the classical world had to have a virgin birth. Also the Hebrew word for virgin can be read as "young woman" so the prophesy that the Messiah was to be born of a virgin could just refer to that. All I can say that if Jesus was a supernatural kind of guy then it's technically possible you can keep an open mind. The Nativity story will be largely spiritually symbolic though there is some of that in there. The three wise men were Persian Magi the business with the star over Bethlehem would have been an astrological planetary  alignment as the Zoroastrians liked their astrology. What it shows there though is that the coming of Christ was significant to people outside of the Jewish faith. The three shepherds took part in the story because they were like the lowest status of Jewish society so the story shows that the event of Christs birth had significance lowest of the low as well as people of some significance such as the three wise men.

So you admit that this entire part of the bible is made up bullshit? Interesting, wonder what else is fictional?

Quote, etc have been disproven time and time again.
I don't see where you're getting that idea from. If you mean you shouldn't read it word for word as literal history I do agree with you. Though of course on the miracles and supernatural events described I can be a little more open minded than yourself. You believe only the natural order as we understand it and experience it on a daily basis is the only thing to exist because that's the only thing we happen to experience right now. This may be somewhat shortsighted in light of what we don't know. Also light of the many incredible and strange occurrences reported throughout the full extent of human history right up to and including the modern era. A lot of it really boils down to whether you're accepting a pure material/naturalist explanation of the universe but I see no good reason why you should do such a thing. So it's somewhat fashionable and trendy atm but that doesn't make it true.

If the bible isn't meant as LITERAL history, there goes the historical evidence of the bible. And therefore I reiterate the bible isn't evidence of crap.

QuoteFace it, the bible isn't a form of evidence for god. There is enough that is false in the bible to consider it false with a reasonable amount of certainty.



Again this is just your own opinion. I can at least back my opinion with something else I don't think you can.

You just admitted that the bible isn't actual history, so that was easy.

Quote2. I don't know. Thats the neat thing about being an atheist[size=78%]
I know you don't know, I don't know either. You see if I knew it wouldn't be faith. But you can have a faith that is based on something reasonable, plausible that has some good rational arguments in support of it. What you have is just your own opinion again. It's an opinion based on nothing leading to a belief in literally nothing.[/size]

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Yet you claim that god did it, thats claiming knowledge. If god did it, thats an answer. If you don't know the answer and make up an answer and try to pass it off as true, thats called bullshitting.
Faith is nothing more than believing what you know aint true.


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[size=78%] I can say that I don't know something vs trying to make up bullshit to make my theory fit. Again you start with the presupposition that god exists. I do not. First you must PROVE the presupposition that god exists. Until you can I have no reason to believe you. To date you have yet to put forth anything but mental masturbation, spiritual hokey, and a book that has been shown to be full of more false than true. These do not amount to evidence, these amount to you WANTING to believe and finding some excuse to. Again this isn't evidence.

No you can't ever prove God exists you can only provide a reasonable reason to have faith in God rather than literally believe in nothing due to your own opinion, which I think is somewhat dogmatically narrow minded. I mean it's possible that what you believe is actually true. I'm not sure you understand the full implications of the situation if that were actually true though. I could go into the details of it with you, you'll find it quite strange and counter intuitive if you really have a good look at that. I would suggest to you that this is not actually true though and God is.[/size]

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If you can't ever prove that god exists, you are simply making my argument for me. If there is no evidence for something why should I believe in it?


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[size=78%]Quote3. If god isn't a physical being it does not exist.


That's due to your own opinion which states that consciousness is the production of matter. I'd suggest it works the other way around, the material universe is a product of consciousness, that being God in this case.[/size]

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This is a fairly decent claim, Id love to see some evidence that you aren't simply making this bullshit up.

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[size=78%]Quote4. I make no presuppositions, I base my theories on the evidence present. There is no evidence for god therefore I don't believe in one. If evidence comes forth that is testable and verifiable then I won't need to believe Id have proof.


You have your opinion then reject God/the Bible based on this opinion. Why do you have the opinion in the first place?[/size]

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I require evidence. God has yet to provide any. Again if evidence for a gods existence was real, I wouldn't need faith Id have evidence. EVIDENCE read that word again and again until you get that into your head. EVIDENCE IS NEEDED TO SUPPORT god.


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[size=78%]Quote5. If god is not scientifically observable, it must not exist.Again that's your opinion and it's a strange opinion at that. Is something true merely because you state it to be true?Quote
If something can not be detected, felt, seen, smelled, tasted, or any other way of actually detecting something why would you try to convince someone that it exists?


You'll have to detect God the old fashioned way through prayer, meditation and that kind of thing. You can't analyse God in a laboratory unfortunately, it doesn't work that way because you have nothing there to physically study. What you physically study is what God made not God himself so you can see the limit of science.[/size]

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I spent 22 years looking for god using the "good old fashioned way" Guess what… No evidence there.


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[size=78%]Quote6. Actually I base my lack of belief on the same level of evidence. There is no evidence for god, or any other fantasy story. Therefore why should I believe?


There's evidence of God if you look in the right places. A laboratory isn't necessarily the right place. I suppose there is paranormal research and some of that stuff can be quite interesting though there's nothing that can be shown as being outside the order of nature. There are certain interesting phenomenon people experience, I believe there is such a thing as telepathy for instance having had an experience with that in my own family. There are some interesting studies into this as well going back to the 19th century though it isn't something that is conclusively proven beyond any doubt. This is the kind of thing you can be more open to if you are not confined within your little materialist box locked on the inside by your own opinion.[/size]

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EVIDENCE NOT BULLSHIT MADE UP STORIES! What part of this is too hard for your "brain" to comprehend?
Paranormal research has been disproven countless times. Psychic abilities also have been refuted time and time again, in fact there has been a million dollar challenge for an actual psychic to prove they aren't just making shit up. Guess what…. Yep nobody has managed to prove it yet.


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[size=78%]QuoteOh and as to my supposed trauma, it was me that outed my parents not the other way around asshat. No trauma, Im not a whiney little bitch that needs a fairytale to make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, unlike you.


Ohhh, you sound rather bitter to me. Just out of interest how upset were you when your parents told you there was no Santa?[/size]

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I believe I was balls deep in your moms ass.


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[size=78%]7. So far you haven't provided an ounce of proof, where is this supposed proof that is being presented?I'll show you mine if you show me yours.[/size]

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Well since you have done my job for me, Go ahead and break out this supposed evidence.[/size]

[Aletheia]

Please stop side stepping the issue and provide the sources from which you draw your conclusions.

What led you to believe there is a god? What was the evidence?

What led you to believe this god is the Christian god?  What was the evidence?

How are you able to hold both belief in a god with a plan and humans having free will without cognitive dissonance?

How are you able to hold the belief in a benevolent god who requires suffering to be part of his plan without cognitive dissonance?

How are you able to justify infinite punishment for finite crimes? What is the person receiving the punishment suppose to learn from a disciplinary action that never ends?

What led you to the belief there is an afterlife? What was the evidence?

And a few that are a matter of curiosity purely on my part:

What is your current level of education, particularly in science?

Are you familiar with the Paul and Elder Model of Critical Thinking?