The Miracle of Prayer

[SGOS]

I was paid a visit by a devout couple who as far as Christians go are fairly reasonable and considerate people.  Blindly religious to be sure, but generally not preachy.  I like them.  

Turns out, the husband had been diagnosed with prostrate cancer 6 months or a year ago.  In addition to elevated PSA results, a biopsy came back positive for cancer.  The doctor told them to come back in 6 or 9 months and he would re-evaluate.  This reflects the current thinking about prostrate cancer, which no longer advocates immediate treatment.  

I first heard about this change happening in the medical community on NPR  about two years ago.  Apparently a lot of needless medical treatments had been common along with unhelpful invasive tests, often with the worst possible side effects.  I was dumfounded.  Not get excited about cancer?  Although if unnecessary and harmful treatment is often the result of false positives, OK, then I get it.

You know where I'm going with this next.  Yep.  On his return trip to his doctor for a reevaluation, the doctor was surprised that there was no indication of cancer.  Had they gone to a different doctor for treatment?  No.  What did they do?  Nothing.

I observed, "So that's it?  The cancer went away by  itself?"  The wife replied, "No we prayed," although it was said in the vein that they had prayed it away, not simply that they prayed because they didn't have anything else to do in the interim.

I gave a lighthearted chuckle of skepticism.  And I'm sorry I did.  It was just a totally automatic response, not with any malice intended, and I didn't want to dump on this fellows perceived miraculous recovery.  He was after all beside himself with joy.  Who wouldn't be to get that report?  The wife became abrupt, "Oh don't you do that.  I KNOW what you think about this sort of thing."  (Oddly, they had never once asked me what I thought about that sort of thing, which is one of the reasons I like them.  They seemed willing to let others be to their own beliefs.)  

However, I'm pretty sure their main purpose of the visit was to convince me of a miracle.  There were some things I picked up on during the exchange that make me think that.  For one thing, she was surprisingly fast to attack me on my skepticism, like she was armed and ready to quickly nullify anything less than me accepting the miracle of prayer.

Although now that I think about it, lately it's been increasingly common for the woman  to criticize many of my thoughts if they don't mirror her own.  Usually, she says I'm just being foolish about something she can't relate to.  (Why is a deep interest in computer technology foolish?)  Things like that.  

OK, I'm getting a little edgy about her superior attitude, which is starting to show itself more and more in recent months.  It's been OK up until now, but she's starting to cross a line, and it's getting on my nerves.  Her husband is fine, not a judgmental bone in his body as far as I can tell, at least not on the surface.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[Mermaid]

This is exactly why I keep my religious beliefs to myself unless I am 100% sure the person I am speaking to is on the same page. If someone starts to talk about Jesus, I smile and listen and shut the hell up. If someone is being dumb and disrespectful, there is no reason to reply in kind unless they cross a boundary.
In this scenario, I would have congratulated him and told him how happy I am for him that he is cancer-free. Period. End of sentence. If pushed by the woman, I would smile and avoid or tell her that I don't want to spoil this great news by arguing about it.

[SGOS]

This is exactly why I keep my religious beliefs to myself unless I am 100% sure the person I am speaking to is on the same page. If someone starts to talk about Jesus, I smile and listen and shut the hell up. If someone is being dumb and disrespectful, there is no reason to reply in kind unless they cross a boundary.
In this scenario, I would have congratulated him and told him how happy I am for him that he is cancer-free. Period. End of sentence. If pushed by the woman, I would smile and avoid or tell her that I don't want to spoil this great news by arguing about it.

I did express that I was happy to hear about the good diagnosis.  I didn't directly respond to her abrupt cut off.  It was after all, a cut off initiated by her.  I think I probably did a spontaneous shoulder shrug, but then I just let it go.  Well, I did as far as the conversation, although I'm starting to be bothered by her superior attitude about "my foolishness" every time she craps on "whatever".  This cannot continue forever, or I will develop and downright dislike for her.  I don't want to do that.  Most of the time, they are very nice people.

But if you don't mind bearing with me a little longer, It just occurred that something else might be going on recently in their lives.  They have both been ardent Obama supporters, and I went to their house to watch the State of the Union message, and the wife just left the room and went to another part of the house.  Very unusual for her not to take an interest in the president she adores.  I asked her husband why she wasn't watching the speech, and he shook his head and did one of those "I don't understand her sometimes" things that expresses a hint of disappointment.  This too seems to indicate some unusual change is taking place.  I've never seen a hint of that before.  Maybe something totally unrelated is going on.  Maybe I do something that bothers her, or maybe it's something else.  Maybe I'll lose her as a friend and if that happens, I don't think she will allow her husband to be my friend.  That would be too bad, I guess, but it may be beyond my control.

Thanks.

[aitm]

I would think I would have reacted exactly the same. As long as you said, "great, and if whatever your doing keeps it away all the more power to you." And let it go at that.

[SGOS]

I would think I would have reacted exactly the same. As long as you said, "great, and if whatever your doing keeps it away all the more power to you." And let it go at that.

Thanks.  I thought it was a good way to handle it.  I'm usually pretty good at letting things go.  Maybe this is just a chance for me to practice letting things like that go.  I don't like to harbor grudges.  I don't think grudges are helpful.

[Solitary]

A false positive on a PSA test can happen, but if he had a biopsy and it showed he had cancer he still does. Prostate cancer takes a long time to kill, and depending on age it can be recommended to just let it go because something else will kill you sooner if you are a dinosaur like me, and the side effects from surgery are problematic. In my case I had to have surgery because the cancer had reached a point where it could spread which is fatal. I question whether he had more than an elevated PSA. If he had a biopsy showing it was cancerous I wish him the best of luck, and wonder if they believe prayer works why they even went to a doctor.  #-o   :roll:  Solitary

[SGOS]

A false positive on a PSA test can happen, but if he had a biopsy and it showed he had cancer he still does.

Yeah, I know a false positive on a biopsy would be rare.  It would almost require a specimen mixup in the lab, and I had the same thought, but I didn't think it was the time to bring it up the idea that whatever procedure resulted in a cancer free diagnosis may be in error.  For whatever reason, his PSA levels also dropped dramatically well into the normal zone on the return visit.  I assume they did another biopsy during the follow up monitoring, but I don't know that.  It's much easier to get a false negative than a false positive on a biopsy.  And PSA tests can be all over the place.  He has to go in again in a few months.

The one good thing in this confusion, is that if the cancer is still there, it doesn't seem to be rampant, and he is at the age where no treatment might very well be the desired approach.  I'm at the age now, where I'm starting to watch friends and relatives kick the bucket.  We all get there if we are lucky, I know, but it's still kind of strange.

I remember my family laughing about my grandfather years ago.  He started regularly dropping by the funeral home because there was a good chance he would know people there.  So this is what it comes to:  Hanging out at funeral parlors. OMG!   :-D

[Youssuf Ramadan]

Maybe the patient should stop giving it the Holy Joe routine.  While it's great that he has got the all-clear, he's going to look a right knob if the cancer returns....

[Deidre32]

So all those parents who pray for their kids who have cancer for example, and those children end up dying...what does a religous person say to them?

This isn't evidence of a god. This is evidence of perhaps, modern medicine can save a life, and sometimes, it can't. To say that God healed a person, when other people die every day, despite being prayed for, is insulting and ignorant.

But, ultimately, that is what religion is. Insulting and ignorant. I'm sorry, this topic makes me angry, because when I was a Christian, I prayed for people and they died. I used to tell myself, 'well they're in a better place. God had other plans...'

All bs words to make MYSELF feel better, but in reality, those people died because that is life. And sometimes modern medicine can save a life, and sometimes, it can't.

[Moriarty]

So all those parents who pray for their kids who have cancer for example, and those children end up dying...what does a religous person say to them?

Gods plan.

[Deidre32]

So all those parents who pray for their kids who have cancer for example, and those children end up dying...what does a religous person say to them?

Gods plan. [ Image ]

Gosh, Moriarty, isn't that the truth?  :(

[SGOS]

Maybe the patient should stop giving it the Holy Joe routine.  While it's great that he has got the all-clear, he's going to look a right knob if the cancer returns....

Well, if he really is all-clear that will be welcome news to everyone. He will say it's a miracle, and I'll be happy for him.  If it turns out he still has cancer, I don't plan on lecturing him about the folly of miracles, however.

[SGOS]

So all those parents who pray for their kids who have cancer for example, and those children end up dying...what does a religous person say to them?

Gods plan. [ Image ]

Gosh, Moriarty, isn't that the truth?  :(

Yes, that's what they say.  Almost every time.  Of course, if God has a plan, why bother praying?  He's got a plan, and that rather settles it.

[Solitary]

Without faith there is no God---you got to get faith to have God, because there is no evidence there is one. And miracles only happen to those that have faith---we all die, with faith, or not--- 8-[    Solitary

[Deidre32]

So, I guess all those people who died in concentration camps during the Holocaust, who prayed ...they didn't have enough faith?

Please don't insult humanity with this bullshit. To suggest that if only we all had enough faith, super natural miracles would be happening in our lives...is insulting.