God bless you!

[Indiscriminalist]

I thought Yanno was a Greek new-age keyboardist.  :-k

[MitchellDaBomb]

Welcome! You will find that this community is one that prides itself in logical deduction...something that cannot be applied to God (or truth) because he is unpersonalized, irrational and justly weighed in form. I'd love to discuss religious beliefs with you if you ever want to! The faith is strong and every faith is welcome to this forum (or should be) :). Personally I am a Muslim (one who submits to god)...not a Muslim confined to the Islamic religion, but someone who believes in the unification of god throughout faith. To me each prophet is a messenger in the divine lineage (seal of the prophets)..they all spoke manifest word...To me god is literally Knowledge itself and his blessedness resides in his eternal timeless realm..I read from the Quran, Book of Certitude, Book of Urantia, Most Holy Book and the Bible (when i need to). I'd love to hear about your outlook on god and religion and I Hope you enjoy your visit :) and God bless you as well.

[Moriarty]

I thought Yanno was a Greek new-age keyboardist.  :-k

An awesome one at it too!

[aitm]

What is the one observable law of the universe

I wonder if he/she/it is going to tell us the answer......

tide comes in, can't explain that?

[Corporal Cross]

My thanks to all for the welcome. It's hardly been a day and already I am enjoying the responses. Well, mostly. I had hoped for a proper answer to my question, but the significance of it seems to be lost here. If there was one thing I did not expect to run into on an atheist forum, it was a dearth of Dawkins fans. He is, after all, the author of The Selfish Gene and a prominent figure in the history of atheism. I just sort of assumed that when I asked what the one observable law of the universe was, it would be very evident, akin to asking a room full of libertarians what taxation is or asking communists about the cause of all social ills.

So far, the only person with anything resembling the correct answer is moralnihilist, though in what I hope is not an emo fashion. The answer is entropy. Entropy is the one observable law of the cosmos. All things ordered proceed to disorder. It's not the speed of light in a vacuum or anything like that. That's all relative, but entropy is a constant. Or is someone aware of a self-sustaining source of matter? Energy?

Now, why do I ask such questions? Well, this is the place for introductions, is it not? Clearly, just coming out and saying I'm a Christian generates all manner of responses, some of which say a great deal about the people who worded them. Manodo wisely observes that atheism is not a religion, but all evidence to the contrary. Some people here behave exactly as though they were part of one in the presence of a heathen. Food for thought, were I capable of such. Dawkins would find it interesting.

I am more interested in the truth of matters. I've already told you what I am here for. If anything, I should be considered an ally in some people's imaginary war against the ignorance of religion. I am faithful, but I am not so much a fool that I ignore the universe around me. It vexes me that so many of the people I would call brothers and sisters in faith cannot see past that which they are told to believe, and simply pointing out that the bible is mathematically flawed does little to dampen their extremely literal and often selective interpretations.  

It concerns me not one whit that most of the members here are atheists of some type or another. Live your life as you choose, and I shall do the same. If that involves praying for you or asking God to bless you, deal with it. There is no harm done in practicing my religion, unless we're willing to try crimes of thought as per an inquisitorial edict. I offer only a fair trade. From me, you can get some perspective on the views of the faithful, and from you lot, I can hopefully glean some more arguments to use against those who shine with so much faith that it blinds them.  

I'm not here to convert you, though all are welcome. If I sell you anything, it will be a new appreciation for the world you live in, which is nothing less than divine if you look at it the right way. Dawkins made a believer out of me, despite being an atheist himself, and he was wise enough to not discount the presence of a God. There is an order to the world that is not readily apparent to people who pray to the unseen or cast aside the notion of design simply because they cannot see it.

The order is, of course, order itself. Some people look at the world and see chaos. I see more people, more high forms of life, creating ever more miraculous things. Or did that change when I wasn't looking? Is humanity on its way to destruction due to religion? How about anything else? Speculate as you will, Christianity owns the world. Well, the first world, anyway. Mayhap there is something to learn from the example. Maybe assuming that you are of superior intellect just because you spit on people with faith is not the enlightened thing you believe it to be. Locke certainly didn't endorse that, and it is to him you primarily owe your faith.

Anyhow, I look forward to the intelligent discussion I have seen glimpses of here. Those of you who think me easy prey because I call Jesus my savior are in for a nasty surprise. I am not here to beggar your pathetic attempts at insult. At least the faithful challenge me with scripture, however convenient and contradicted. Those of you who cannot quote your own scripture might as well shove off. I did not come all this way to entertain the opinions of every idiot left of the bell-curve who assumes that they are somehow correct in assumption of things they know nothing about. The faith has its share of those, and so does the big-bang theory. Neither are of any more interest than tirelessly worn books of Goodall's.

But enough of that. This is the place for introductions and welcomes. I've told you who I am, why I think the way I do. You know me now. It is my earnest hope that I will come to know you, to see the world through different eyes. Is that so wrong? Careful, you might find yourself thinking like a Christian before long :p

[aitm]

I'm not here to convert you,

You would be unable.

95% of us grew up reading the babble and getting fed the crap. The only difference is we recognized it and you have yet to.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

[bullshit]

I'm impressed that in so many paragraphs you managed to say absolutely nothing.

[Solitary]

:-D Welcome aboard Corporal Cross! The rule of the universe is that every living thing dies. And all the tears and fears and imaginary magical thinking will change that.  :shock:   8-)  Solitary

[aitm]

[bullshit]

I'm impressed that in so many paragraphs you managed to say absolutely nothing.

why does hijiri always get the good lines?

[stromboli]

And please understand that we really don't need your opinion or viewpoint on anything. Several of us here came out of religious backgrounds. Everything you can potentially bring has been brought numerous times. You come here for your own reasons, but don't think anything you do will enlighten us in any way.

[hrdlr110]

[bullshit]

I'm impressed that in so many paragraphs you managed to say absolutely nothing.

I'm impressed that in one sentence you managed to sum up all his paragraphs.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

[bullshit]

I'm impressed that in so many paragraphs you managed to say absolutely nothing.

I'm impressed that in one sentence you managed to sum up all his paragraphs.

My father taught me everything he knew about business writing. The whole point is to convey the maximum meaning with the minimum verbosity. Theists give me lots of good practice with it. :)

[MitchellDaBomb]

Morality is separating good from bad...or truth from false...but since truth is too vast...there is no true concrete morality in this life. The only thing humans know how to do truthfully is to spread knowledge (god) good or bad. The best we can do is get as close as we can..and the worst we can do is keep our distance.
The only quest for truth is the quest for love, faith, and unity and the spread of god..not to prove him but to further him
Truth is false, while false is true.
"The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.
Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father."
This is how i perceive things to be

[Moralnihilist]

Morality is separating good from bad...or truth from false...but since truth is too vast...there is no true concrete morality in this life. The only thing humans know how to do truthfully is to spread knowledge (god) good or bad. The best we can do is get as close as we can..and the worst we can do is keep our distance.
The only quest for truth is the quest for love, faith, and unity and the spread of god..not to prove him but to further him
Truth is false, while false is true.
"The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.
Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father."
This is how i perceive things to be

Morality is nothing more that societal norms. Morality differs depending on who is in charge(sure they keep some stuff but not all of it).
The rest of this statement is just random babbling of no profound information. No offense but that argument is quite old and tired.

[Manodo]

My thanks to all for the welcome. It's hardly been a day and already I am enjoying the responses. Well, mostly. I had hoped for a proper answer to my question, but the significance of it seems to be lost here. If there was one thing I did not expect to run into on an atheist forum, it was a dearth of Dawkins fans. He is, after all, the author of The Selfish Gene and a prominent figure in the history of atheism. I just sort of assumed that when I asked what the one observable law of the universe was, it would be very evident, akin to asking a room full of libertarians what taxation is or asking communists about the cause of all social ills.

Well, you cannot chide us if the question you asked was to vague to determine what a valid answer would be. One observable law of the universe is that the electron has an opposite charge to the proton, for example.

So far, the only person with anything resembling the correct answer is moralnihilist, though in what I hope is not an emo fashion. The answer is entropy. Entropy is the one observable law of the cosmos. All things ordered proceed to disorder. It's not the speed of light in a vacuum or anything like that. That's all relative, but entropy is a constant. Or is someone aware of a self-sustaining source of matter? Energy?

Why does something being relative not make it an answer to your question?

And to add to that, the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant. The only thing which is relative is the units in which we measure it in. But we can also switch around the units in which we define entropy. So why is the law of entropy any less relative than the speed of light, and therefore a more valid answer?

Now, why do I ask such questions? Well, this is the place for introductions, is it not? Clearly, just coming out and saying I'm a Christian generates all manner of responses, some of which say a great deal about the people who worded them. Manodo wisely observes that atheism is not a religion, but all evidence to the contrary. Some people here behave exactly as though they were part of one in the presence of a heathen. Food for thought, were I capable of such. Dawkins would find it interesting.

Well, nice to meet you CC. I'm still not entirely sure what your motive is, but I think it's something along the lines of just seeing how athiests respond to you in general.

Why do you keep mentioning Dawkins?

I am more interested in the truth of matters. I've already told you what I am here for. If anything, I should be considered an ally in some people's imaginary war against the ignorance of religion. I am faithful, but I am not so much a fool that I ignore the universe around me. It vexes me that so many of the people I would call brothers and sisters in faith cannot see past that which they are told to believe, and simply pointing out that the bible is mathematically flawed does little to dampen their extremely literal and often selective interpretations.

I'm glad that you don't ignore the universe around you. : )

But your recognition of the bible being "mathematically flawed" presents you with a problem, one that I'm sure you are aware of. If the people who wrote the bible were wrong about elementary mathematics, how likely are they right to be about everything else?  

It concerns me not one whit that most of the members here are atheists of some type or another. Live your life as you choose, and I shall do the same. If that involves praying for you or asking God to bless you, deal with it. There is no harm done in practicing my religion, unless we're willing to try crimes of thought as per an inquisitorial edict. I offer only a fair trade. From me, you can get some perspective on the views of the faithful, and from you lot, I can hopefully glean some more arguments to use against those who shine with so much faith that it blinds them.

Alrighty then.

I'm not here to convert you, though all are welcome. If I sell you anything, it will be a new appreciation for the world you live in, which is nothing less than divine if you look at it the right way. Dawkins made a believer out of me, despite being an atheist himself, and he was wise enough to not discount the presence of a God. There is an order to the world that is not readily apparent to people who pray to the unseen or cast aside the notion of design simply because they cannot see it.

How did Dawkins make you a believer?

The order is, of course, order itself. Some people look at the world and see chaos. I see more people, more high forms of life, creating ever more miraculous things. Or did that change when I wasn't looking? Is humanity on its way to destruction due to religion? How about anything else? Speculate as you will, Christianity owns the world. Well, the first world, anyway. Mayhap there is something to learn from the example. Maybe assuming that you are of superior intellect just because you spit on people with faith is not the enlightened thing you believe it to be. Locke certainly didn't endorse that, and it is to him you primarily owe your faith.

People tend to advance society and technology, I agree. Your usage of the word "miraculous" is suspect here, but I'll assume you mean it poetically rather than literally.

I don't think anyone seriously makes the claim that religion will lead to our own destruction, as that is tantamount to predicting the future. What we do observe in the here and now is that many advances in science and ethics are held back due to religious reasons.

Christians represent a large population of the first world (I'll assume this is what you mean by "own"), so what? Do white people own first the world too?

I don't know any athiests who assume to have a superior intellect. You don't require much intelligence to simply not believe in something.

And I have never read the works of Locke, so I don't owe him squat.

Anyhow, I look forward to the intelligent discussion I have seen glimpses of here. Those of you who think me easy prey because I call Jesus my savior are in for a nasty surprise. I am not here to beggar your pathetic attempts at insult. At least the faithful challenge me with scripture, however convenient and contradicted. Those of you who cannot quote your own scripture might as well shove off. I did not come all this way to entertain the opinions of every idiot left of the bell-curve who assumes that they are somehow correct in assumption of things they know nothing about. The faith has its share of those, and so does the big-bang theory. Neither are of any more interest than tirelessly worn books of Goodall's.

But enough of that. This is the place for introductions and welcomes. I've told you who I am, why I think the way I do. You know me now. It is my earnest hope that I will come to know you, to see the world through different eyes. Is that so wrong? Careful, you might find yourself thinking like a Christian before long :p

Okey doke, welcome.