Atheists Criticizing Other Atheists

[Shol'va]

To be fair, a good chunk of that also comes from the citizenry. After 9/11, people wanted to feel safe and protected. It didn't matter what that was as we all know that there was never something properly articulated; people just knew that they wanted to feel safe at home and feel that the government is doing something to protect them. So (as part of it), the whole security theater at the airports, warantless wiretapping, etc. In a sense, the government did listen to what the people wanted and implemented what they thought were the best measures. Then you've got the media, which perpetuated the scare and also intensified it, because we all know that FUD sells news and captures audiences (fear, uncertainty, doubt). You can't put non-news on the air, it's gotta be sensationalist.
So now that we are well past the "we need to feel safe and secure" stage, now it's all about "holy shit WHAT measures is the government taking? WHAT are they prying into??", and the news channels are starting to cater to that. It's like a giant pendulum.

Again, I am not attempting to completely justify the measures or come to the defense of the administration, I am acknowledging another angle of reality that isn't often discussed.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"

Yep. Bread and circuses.
From personal experience I can tell you that Ceausescu's biggest mistake was his attempt to pay Romania's foreign debt entirely. He wanted to owe nothing to nobody. So to that end, he enforced rations not unlike wartime rations: you could only drive your car on certain days of the month, buy a certain amount of liters of fuel, buy a certain amount of bread, meat, etc etc. I still remember staying in line to buy bread, on a punch card that kept track how much my family had bought that month. So when the proverbial leash tightened too much, the people did something about it. Had he not taken those extreme measures, he'd been in power for a good while longer.
Bread and circuses. Keep the people content and entertained and you're good to go.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Absolutely. The American people demanded security; but they either didn't know, or chose to ignore, the costs which such demands impose. And now that the bill is coming due, hopefully more and more will raise their voices, and vote accordingly.

I was a member of an AOL chatroom when 9/11 happened, and one of my first comments on it was that the first casualty would be Constitutional rights.  Never have been so sorry to be right, you know? But the temper and mood of the public demanded answers, it demanded action, and it demanded preventative measures.

This is why your point about "security theater" rang so true with me.  It's a dog-and-pony show, aimed at mollifying the public by addressing the last threat -- not the next one. In that sense, it's like how generals typically fight the last war in the present one.

[Insult to Rocks]

Absolutely. The American people demanded security; but they either didn't know, or chose to ignore, the costs which such demands impose. And now that the bill is coming due, hopefully more and more will raise their voices, and vote accordingly.

I was a member of an AOL chatroom when 9/11 happened, and one of my first comments on it was that the first casualty would be Constitutional rights.  Never have been so sorry to be right, you know? But the temper and mood of the public demanded answers, it demanded action, and it demanded preventative measures.

This is why your point about "security theater" rang so true with me.  It's a dog-and-pony show, aimed at mollifying the public by addressing the last threat -- not the next one. In that sense, it's like how generals typically fight the last war in the present one.

I agree with you. Somewhat. You seem to be overestimating the malice of the government in comparison to the stupidity of the people. There have been plenty of times that the government has been right about things that the people were not, and vice versa. And as odd as it may seem, there are some truly moral and intelligent people in the government, even then, who made decisions that they thought were best for the world, not just for their own reputation. We do not have as antagonistic of a relationship as many people think.
As for the post-9/11 scare, I do not think there was anything malicious about it, so much as stupidity. If there are parallels to Pearl Harbor in 9/11, it's that the U.S ignored a huge and incredibly dangerous threat until it was to late, and being caught of guard, went overboard in insuring their renewed safety. It's not a ploy or political maneuver to control the people. It's just our human tendency to not learn from the past on full display.

[GrinningYMIR]

Pearl Harbor lost the axis the war, that an Stalingrad and no sea lion

[Insult to Rocks]

Pearl Harbor lost the axis the war, that an Stalingrad and no sea lion

Wait, sea lion? What? I am confused.

[GrinningYMIR]

Sea lion was the German codename for the planned invasion of the UK

[Insult to Rocks]

Sea lion was the German codename for the planned invasion of the UK

Ah, yes, now I remember. It's just that the way you said it sounded more like they lost because they lacked a population of sea lions.

[GrinningYMIR]

Having a population of sea lions is an extremely important asset to any military commander


You know that!

[Insult to Rocks]

Having a population of sea lions is an extremely important asset to any military commander


You know that!

Not as much as cardboard boxes. A cardboard box is a soldiers best friend, after all.

[GrinningYMIR]

And rubber duckies.



KNEEL BEFORE THE DUCKY

[Thumpalumpacus]

Absolutely. The American people demanded security; but they either didn't know, or chose to ignore, the costs which such demands impose. And now that the bill is coming due, hopefully more and more will raise their voices, and vote accordingly.

I was a member of an AOL chatroom when 9/11 happened, and one of my first comments on it was that the first casualty would be Constitutional rights.  Never have been so sorry to be right, you know? But the temper and mood of the public demanded answers, it demanded action, and it demanded preventative measures.

This is why your point about "security theater" rang so true with me.  It's a dog-and-pony show, aimed at mollifying the public by addressing the last threat -- not the next one. In that sense, it's like how generals typically fight the last war in the present one.

I agree with you. Somewhat. You seem to be overestimating the malice of the government in comparison to the stupidity of the people. There have been plenty of times that the government has been right about things that the people were not, and vice versa. And as odd as it may seem, there are some truly moral and intelligent people in the government, even then, who made decisions that they thought were best for the world, not just for their own reputation. We do not have as antagonistic of a relationship as many people think.
As for the post-9/11 scare, I do not think there was anything malicious about it, so much as stupidity. If there are parallels to Pearl Harbor in 9/11, it's that the U.S ignored a huge and incredibly dangerous threat until it was to late, and being caught of guard, went overboard in insuring their renewed safety. It's not a ploy or political maneuver to control the people. It's just our human tendency to not learn from the past on full display.

Well, the last attack certainly accelerated the run to the Imperial Presidency. I know that there are good folk in all levels of government, but I also know that there are assholes, creeps, and  those who have zero concern for our rights.  Additionally, I think that politicians are pretty opportunistic, and at least in our country, have shown quite a bit of eagerness in expanding their own -- and governmental -- powers at the expense of our rights, a pattern of behavior that I find sad and disquieting; and such was the same even when I enlisted about six hundred years ago. Solving problems doesn't appear nearly as important as "doing something" (witness the gridlock we've experienced as battle lines are drawn over minor issues).

I know that there's a little more nuance to it than my previous post may have indicated, but when assessing the larger trend, it seems to me that the public seems largely distracted by the latest doings of the Kardashians or the newest I-phone, and reluctant to do the homework that a democracy really demands from its voting citizens.  And while thepoliticians may not be organizing such distractions, they certainly are busy making hay while the sun shines -- at our expense.

[Insult to Rocks]

Absolutely. The American people demanded security; but they either didn't know, or chose to ignore, the costs which such demands impose. And now that the bill is coming due, hopefully more and more will raise their voices, and vote accordingly.

I was a member of an AOL chatroom when 9/11 happened, and one of my first comments on it was that the first casualty would be Constitutional rights.  Never have been so sorry to be right, you know? But the temper and mood of the public demanded answers, it demanded action, and it demanded preventative measures.

This is why your point about "security theater" rang so true with me.  It's a dog-and-pony show, aimed at mollifying the public by addressing the last threat -- not the next one. In that sense, it's like how generals typically fight the last war in the present one.

I agree with you. Somewhat. You seem to be overestimating the malice of the government in comparison to the stupidity of the people. There have been plenty of times that the government has been right about things that the people were not, and vice versa. And as odd as it may seem, there are some truly moral and intelligent people in the government, even then, who made decisions that they thought were best for the world, not just for their own reputation. We do not have as antagonistic of a relationship as many people think.
As for the post-9/11 scare, I do not think there was anything malicious about it, so much as stupidity. If there are parallels to Pearl Harbor in 9/11, it's that the U.S ignored a huge and incredibly dangerous threat until it was to late, and being caught of guard, went overboard in insuring their renewed safety. It's not a ploy or political maneuver to control the people. It's just our human tendency to not learn from the past on full display.

Well, the last attack certainly accelerated the run to the Imperial Presidency. I know that there are good folk in all levels of government, but I also know that there are assholes, creeps, and  those who have zero concern for our rights.  Additionally, I think that politicians are pretty opportunistic, and at least in our country, have shown quite a bit of eagerness in expanding their own -- and governmental -- powers at the expense of our rights, a pattern of behavior that I find sad and disquieting; and such was the same even when I enlisted about six hundred years ago. Solving problems doesn't appear nearly as important as "doing something" (witness the gridlock we've experienced as battle lines are drawn over minor issues).

I know that there's a little more nuance to it than my previous post may have indicated, but when assessing the larger trend, it seems to me that the public seems largely distracted by the latest doings of the Kardashians or the newest I-phone, and reluctant to do the homework that a democracy really demands from its voting citizens.  And while thepoliticians may not be organizing such distractions, they certainly are busy making hay while the sun shines -- at our expense.

Honestly, from my experiance with people from all sides of the political spectrum, I wouldn't say apathy or unintrest is our main problem, at least not the way you put it. It's generalization. Most people I know would rather assume that all wars are fought over oil or that men can never be raped by women rather than actually dig deep enough to undersstand the complexsities of the situation. Humans have a tendancy to want easy all-encompassing answers, whihc is a problem, as there never is any such answers.