Is Freefall Proof of Controlled Demolition?

[Poison Tree]

Any major points I missed?

That the source you put forward to prove free fall says 40% slower than free fall; free fall accounted for less then half the collapse measured in time or distance. That's only looking at the north exterior face collapse, ignoring horizontal motion caused by internal cascading floor failures and the collapse of the east pent house.

I'm still baffled as to why you started off with the NIST paper, one that not only disagrees with your claim of free fall, but also with your claim that explosives were used

Blast events did not play a role in the collapse of WTC 7. Based on visual and audio evidence and the use of specialized computer modeling to simulate hypothetical blast events, NIST concluded that blast events did not occur, and found no evidence whose explanation required invocation of a blast event. Blast from the smallest charge capable of failing a critical column (i.e., Column 79) would have resulted in a sound level of 130 dB to 140 dB at a distance of at least half a mile if unobstructed by surrounding buildings (such as along
Greenwich Street or West Broadway). This sound level is consistent with standing next to a jet plane engine and more than 10 times louder than being in front of the speakers at a rock concert. There were no witness reports of such a loud noise, nor was such a noise heard on the audio tracks of video recordings of the WTC 7 collapse.

How about you ignore all us forum monkeys, Godzillas, extra planes, jet fuel, ect, and just focus on taking apart your own source's disagreements with you.

[AtheistMoFo]

They make tin-foil earmuffs so you cant hear a thing anyone else says? That's pretty niffty.

Really?  How much do they cost?  Where do you buy yours?

That the source you put forward to prove free fall says 40% slower than free fall; free fall accounted for less then half the collapse measured in time or distance. That's only looking at the north exterior face collapse, ignoring horizontal motion caused by internal cascading floor failures and the collapse of the east pent house.

It does not matter that it came down at freefall for only part of the descent. Freefall as pointed out numerous times means there is zero structural support, so freefall is not possible at all, not for the whole building, not for 8 stories

NCSTAR 1A
[spoil:yazq882f]3.6 TIMING OF COLLAPSE INITIATION AND PROGRESSION
The timing of global collapse of WTC 7, as indicated by downward motion of the north exterior face, was
investigated using a video of the collapse taken from the vantage point of West Street near Harrison Street
(Camera No. 3, Figure 5-183 of NIST NCSTAR 1-9). An initial analysis compared the observed time it
took for the roofline to fall approximately 18 stories to the free fall time under the force of gravity. A
more detailed analysis examined the vertical displacement, velocity, and acceleration through different
stages of the collapse process. (NIST NCSTAR 1-9, Chapter 12)
The time that the roofline took to fall 18 stories or 73.8 m (242 ft) was approximately 5.4 s. The
theoretical time for free fall (i.e., at gravitational acceleration) was computed from
t=[square root of]2h/g
where t = time, s; h = distance, m (ft); and g = gravitational acceleration, 9.81 m/s2 (32.2 ft/s2). This time
was approximately 3.9 s. Thus, the average time for the upper 18 stories to collapse, based on video
evidence, was approximately 40 percent longer than the computed free fall time.
A more detailed examination of the same video led to a better understanding of the vertical motion of the
building in the first several seconds of descent. NIST tracked the downward displacement of a point near
the center of the roofline, fitting the data using a smooth function.3 (The time at which motion of the
roofline was first perceived was taken as time zero.) The fitted displacement function was then
differentiated to estimate the downward velocity as a function of time, shown as a solid curve in Figure 3-
15. Velocity data points (solid circles) were also determined from the displacement data using a central
difference approximation.4 The slope of the velocity curve is approximately constant between about
1.75 s and 4.0 s, and a good straight line fit to the points in this range (open-circles in Figure 3-15)
allowed estimation of a constant downward acceleration during this time interval. This acceleration was
32.2 ft/s2 (9.81 m/s2), equivalent to the acceleration of gravity g.
For discussion purposes, three stages were defined, as denoted in Figure 3-15:
• In Stage 1, the descent was slow and the acceleration was less than that of gravity. This stage
   corresponds to the initial buckling of the exterior columns in the lower stories of the north face.
  By 1.75 s, the north face had descended approximately 2.2 m (7 ft).
• In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as the buckled columns
   provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north face. This free fall drop continued
  for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105 ft), the distance traveled between times t = 1.75 s and
 t = 4.0 s.
• In Stage 3, the acceleration decreased somewhat as the upper portion of the north face
   encountered increased resistance from the collapsed structure and the debris pile below. Between
  4.0 s and 5.4 s, the north face corner fell an additional 39.6 m (130 ft).
As noted above, the collapse time was approximately 40 percent longer than that of free fall for the first
18 stories of descent. The detailed analysis shows that this increase in time is due primarily to Stage 1.
The three stages of collapse progression described above are consistent with the results of the global
collapse analyses discussed in Chapter 12 of NIST NCSTAR 1-9.[/spoil:yazq882f]
40% slower that freefall is exactly what they want you to think.  Take a good look at the sleigh of hand they are using.  They talk about three stages of the collapse.  They say the *AVERAGE* time of the three stages is 40% longer than free fall.  But they are not denying free fall, they are confiming it.
Stage 1, slower than free fall
Stage 2, free fall
Stage 3, slower than free fall.
"In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as the buckled columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north face. This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105 ft), the distance traveled between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s."

They start the clock when the penthouse falls, but if you look at the video, you see that the roofline does not actually begin to move until after a considerable delay after thr penthouse falls.  WTC 7 building was damaged, yes, but to call the collapse of the penthouse the start of the collapse is misleading.  They could have called the debris hitting the building the start of the collapse and say it took six hours to come down.  Much, much slower than freefall.  But that would have made the trickery way too obvious.  What it says if you read between the lines is that the building was in freefall for 2.25 seconds, falling 8 stories, for a distance of 32 meters (105 feet).

PS to Shiranu: Next time you are at your tinfoil hat dealer, why not ask them if they have any smart pills.

[Solitary]

Well I'm going to stick my neck out on this one, so get your axes ready. What brought down the nearby Building 7, it wasn't hit by a plane or the falling towers enough to bring it all the way down? Why did many people in the building and firefighters say they heard explosions before the Towers came down. As to the way controlled demolition experts do it isn't the way the military does it, and the military uses nano-thermite that burns at 2500 degrees Centigrade and able to melt steel that airplane fuel can't do. What has always bothered me is how our military that was on test maneuvers at the time and Traffic Controllers never saw 4 planes go out of their flight pattern and never contacted NORAD, and our government and CIA, SS, or FBI never had a clue it could happen after there were explosives put at the base of the twin towers (How did they do it?) and set off before this happened, and France had warned them that they stopped some high Jackers from taking down the Eifel tower with a plane and it could happen here. All planes have Black Boxes now, why were non ever found, even at the Pentagon? I guess this was a good excuse to go to war again in Iraq, even though the terrorist were from Saudi Arabia and their money was used to train them. You know, the Royal Family, that are the Bush family favorites.  :shock:  :P   Solitary

[The Skeletal Atheist]

They started the clock when then penthouse fell because that's when the collapse started happening. The penthouse falling is a sign that there is something very fucking wrong with the internal structure of the building.

[Sargon The Grape]

Well I'm going to stick my neck out on this one, so get your axes ready. What brought down the nearby Building 7, it wasn't hit by a plane or the falling towers enough to bring it all the way down? Why did many people in the building and firefighters say they heard explosions before the Towers came down. As to the way controlled demolition experts do it isn't the way the military does it, and the military uses nano-thermite that burns at 2500 degrees Centigrade and able to melt steel that airplane fuel can't do. What has always bothered me is how our military that was on test maneuvers at the time and Traffic Controllers never saw 4 planes go out of their flight pattern and never contacted NORAD, and our government and CIA, SS, or FBI never had a clue it could happen after there were explosives put at the base of the twin towers (How did they do it?) and set off before this happened, and France had warned them that they stopped some high Jackers from taking down the Eifel tower with a plane and it could happen here. All planes have Black Boxes now, why were non ever found, even at the Pentagon? I guess this was a good excuse to go to war again in Iraq, even though the terrorist were from Saudi Arabia and their money was used to train them. You know, the Royal Family, that are the Bush family favorites.  :shock:  :P   Solitary

[youtube:hamoq4u9]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKReoE3IOkE[/youtube:hamoq4u9]

[Sargon The Grape]

And while I'm at it:

[youtube:3qxvk3ch]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8VAsoVuShM[/youtube:3qxvk3ch]

[Insult to Rocks]

RECAP OF FIRST THREE DAYS of this thread.  There may have been additional points raised since my most recent post which may not be reflected here.

Let's take look at the major arguments so far.

The Controlled Demolition Theory camp (CDT'ers) have documented that WTC 7 did in fact fall at freefall acceleration, and insist that freefall is impossible unless all structural support is removed instantaneously across the entire building.  Freefall has been denied by some in the Official Conspiracy Theory camp (OCT'ers), ignored by others, or "Fuck NIST, they don't count."  (Noboy has suggested that Isaac Newton should be fucked, but his principles are rejected by the OCT'ers regardless.)

The CDT'ers have no documented evidence of how the explosives were smuggled into and planted inside WTC 7 and offer no plausible or even remotely possible scenario of how.

The OCT'ers have not presented any evidendence, plausible or even remotely possible, of how the hijackers smuggled box cutters past security guards at the two airports from which the planes were hijacked.  (Not relevant to the discussion, but curious to note that security at both airports was managed by an israeli company.  But please disregard, as it is irrelevant and racist.)

The OCT'ers have claimed Gozilla did it, and presented evidence consisting of still photo from a Godzilla movie (filmed in Japan).  This theory has not been refuted by CDT'ers and remains open to further discussion.

OCT'ers have claimed there was jet fuel in WTC 7, but presented no hard evidence, not even a possible scenario of how it got there.

OCT'ers have claimed that a fifth airplane crashed into WTC 7 (or perhaps one of the other planes crashed into two of the buildings?) but presented no documentation of this.

Other OCT'ers have presented various evidence of planes smashing into the Twin Towers and the crumbling of the towers, but have offered no explanation of how this impacts the freefall acceleration of WTC 7.

CDT'ers have offered evidence of finding thermite as documented by a peer reviewed paper, but this has been refuted by the OCT'ers because of
1) peer reviewed papers can be faked,
2) none of the parties who found thermite work for the government, and
3) if thermite had been present it would have been found by government agents who were not looking for it.

OCT'ers have claimed that non-authenticated videos of Osama bin Laden claiming responsibility for the attack is proof of exoneration of all other suspects, but have offered no evidence or theories on how or why it automatically exonerates everyone else even if the video could be authenticated.  (Unfortunately, we can not question bin Laden himself about the "confession" because he was sentenced to summary execution before his trial.)

Although "high speed" of the jets smashing into the Twin Towers has been brought up, the approximate speed at which they were travelling at the time of impact was not estimated by either side.  Nor has there been any explanation that would tie this "fact" in with WTC 7.

Any major points I missed?

Recap of the thread: Mofo ignores everything we have said and also cannot understand jokes like Hijiri's Godzilla pic. More specifically, he posits that thermite explosives where present in the Twin Towers, despite multiple rebuttals, thinks that a worldwide terrorist organization cannot steal planes, and has still not addressed any of the other 9/11 attacks in his mad crackpot "theory". Did I miss anything, thread?

[Poison Tree]

Oh, how silly of me. Mofo doesn't want to talk about September the 11th; he wants to talk about 2.25 seconds. Nothing what so ever to say about four hijackings--expect to scoff at the notion that there were any Muslim hijackers. Planes hitting two towers, the Pentagon and a field; far beyond his scope. Two towers collapsing, the second sending burning debris into building 7 and causing some structural damage; why drag up ancient history. Hours of fire; wake him when something important happens. Firefighters becoming concerned the building may fall; someone should tell them fire doesn't bring down steel buildings. The building starts to kink and sag and deform; Mofo is still not interested. Floors are collapsing, supports bucking, building shifting more; getting close. Penthouse collapses; not yet. The roof starts to fall, slowly; almost.

For two and a quarter seconds--8 of 47 floors--the tower is at free fall speed; Mofo springs into action! "Controlled demolition, controlled demolition! Them damn JEws. Read the NIST report--no not that part, or that part. Read between the these lines in the report. All you sheeple clinging to faith that the Muslims, not the jews, did it. laws of physics FTW!!!11!! Full support to zero support."

Fall of building 7 no longer at free fall; "no, you missed it, go back". Years of investigation, simulations, papers, analysis; "Ignore that; 2.25 seconds free fall laws of physics"

[Plu]

40% slower that freefall is exactly what they want you to think. Take a good look at the sleigh of hand they are using. They talk about three stages of the collapse. They say the *AVERAGE* time of the three stages is 40% longer than free fall. But they are not denying free fall, they are confiming it.
Stage 1, slower than free fall
Stage 2, free fall
Stage 3, slower than free fall.
"In Stage 2, the north face descended at gravitational acceleration, as the buckled columns provided negligible support to the upper portion of the north face. This free fall drop continued for approximately 8 stories or 32.0 m (105 ft), the distance traveled between times t = 1.75 s and t = 4.0 s."

So the argument has become that they used explosives to take out approximately 8 stories of the building, and then let fire and other damages do the rest? And they timed the use of the explosives to be exactly coincided with the rest of the building coming down from natural causes? That seems totally plausible.

[DunkleSeele]

A shitload of conspiracy crap

So, Cybercommuter... looks like you didn't keep your promise to not show up on this forum any more, now did you?
And why are you using a sockpuppet? Are you trying to give yourself a new credibility after you thoroughly discredited yourself the last time? Moron.

[Sargon The Grape]

As I said a few pages ago, I happen to know freefall would have been much faster. Maybe if he'd read his own links, he would have figured out how I knew that.

[Solitary]

This is hilarious because no one here knows what actually happen. How many here believe they saw the first plane it the Tower on the day it happened. If people are fooled by the second plane hitting the Tower from different views thinking it was the first plane, what does that tell you?  :-k  Think about it, there is no way anyone could have seen on TV the first plane hit on the day it happened because the video of the first plane wasn't released until the next day. Don't believe me, check it out for yourself or just use good old plain logic. The News camera crew has to have the time and a place to set up to film. They could not have been there to see when the first plane hit the Tower.  The videos prove nothing about what actually happened, only that people can be fooled either way. :roll:  Solitary

[Insult to Rocks]

Solitary, please don't do this. I know you're smarter than that. We've presented bounds of textual and visual evidence to credit the official story. This argument, which never should have been an argument in the first place, should be over. Please, just let it die.

[Sargon The Grape]

They could not have been there to see when the first plane hit the Tower.

[youtube:27xymb6d]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys41jnL2Elk[/youtube:27xymb6d]

[Solitary]

They could not have been there to see when the first plane hit the Tower.

[youtube:h0foganm]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys41jnL2Elk[/youtube:h0foganm]

This is not a recording made by the media the day it happen. It was released the next day. Give me a break, are people so illogical here they don't realize a media footage couldn't have been made when the first plane hit on the same day unless they were there waiting for it? It's not my point they were, it's my point that no one saw the footage on the day it happen because they weren't there to see the first plane hit. Check the dates when the footage of the first plane hitting was released. Someone did film it, but it wasn't the media that did it on the same day. If someone else filmed it the media has to acquire it and have it released to them---after they find out if someone filmed it which takes time.  :roll:  Solitary