LGBT People: The Pope is Not Our Ally

[Atheon]

I for one am rather shocked that a sizable portion of the LGBT thinks so highly of the pope.

Imagine you're a prisoner, and your jailer keeps you chained and hanging upside down.

Then that jailer retires, and is replaced by a new jailer who decides to keep you chained, but at least this time you're hanging the right way up.

You'd probably have some positive things to say about the new jailer.

You're still chained up in a jail cell, but it's a better situation than before, and a step in the right direction.

[stromboli]

Meet the new boss
He's the same as the old boss
 There's nothing in the street
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Is now the parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

The Who. Shit don't change. The fact that you paint a fence a different color doesn't make it a different fence. I spent too many years getting burned by "change" as a Mormon not to recognize the same BS in a different bag when I see it.

[Insult to Rocks]

I for one am rather shocked that a sizable portion of the LGBT thinks so highly of the pope.

Imagine you're a prisoner, and your jailer keeps you chained and hanging upside down.

Then that jailer retires, and is replaced by a new jailer who decides to keep you chained, but at least this time you're hanging the right way up.

You'd probably have some positive things to say about the new jailer.

You're still chained up in a jail cell, but it's a better situation than before, and a step in the right direction.

Except, as pointed out by Hydra and multiple others, the new pope has not actually done anything positive. It's mostly been the usual nonsense that comes with being the pope: press conferences, speeches and random comments on things, but no actual action taken regarding the enemy ideology of the day. Also, regardless of his personal opinions, the catholic church is most likely never going to give up it's homophobia. They've lost too much ground to this molestation issue. They will have to take a hard turn into right wing fundamentalism if they wish to stay relevant.

[stromboli]

I for one am rather shocked that a sizable portion of the LGBT thinks so highly of the pope.

Imagine you're a prisoner, and your jailer keeps you chained and hanging upside down.

Then that jailer retires, and is replaced by a new jailer who decides to keep you chained, but at least this time you're hanging the right way up.

You'd probably have some positive things to say about the new jailer.

You're still chained up in a jail cell, but it's a better situation than before, and a step in the right direction.

Except, as pointed out by Hydra and multiple others, the new pope has not actually done anything positive. It's mostly been the usual nonsense that comes with being the pope: press conferences, speeches and random comments on things, but no actual action taken regarding the enemy ideology of the day. Also, regardless of his personal opinions, the catholic church is most likely never going to give up it's homophobia. They've lost too much ground to this molestation issue. They will have to take a hard turn into right wing fundamentalism if they wish to stay relevant.

I could make the case that they are right wing fundamentalists. They certainly were in WW2, betraying Jews in Italy to the Nazis. Their stance is consistent with right wind fundamentalism in the U.S.. The more "liberal" the Holy see portrays itself, the more suspicious their behavior is. They are never going to be different underneath, however they supposedly "redefine" themselves.

[Insult to Rocks]

Exactly. The Catholic church literally cannot change their ideology. If they do, the very basis of their faith and belief system will destroy itself. The WW2 catholic church is still here, they just hide it with all the child molesters so that no one can see it.

[_Xenu_]

I can see why some in the GLBT community would like this guy, but others wouldn't. Its true that he's changing focus, not doctrine. IMHO though, thats a fairly big step in and of itself because he is at least pushing the idea of greater tolerance. He still considers homosexuality a sin, but also admits that everyone is a sinner and says not to judge. Sounds alot like what Jesus taught.

In any case, I really like his hostility to exploitive capitalism, which could be benefit us all, while his compassion and humility are inspiring. As I admitted, he's not changing doctrine re: homosexuality, but in such a large and powerful organization, even a mere shift in focus can have enormous real world consequences. So yeah, I can see why some GLBT folk would be fans. To those  who don't like Francis, is there anyone you could name in the Catholic hierarchy that would be better?

[Plu]

To those who don't like Francis, is there anyone you could name in the Catholic hierarchy that would be better?

Why does it matter? It's perfectly acceptable for all of them to be pieces of shit in their own right. You don't have to like the lesser of two evils.

[_Xenu_]

To those who don't like Francis, is there anyone you could name in the Catholic hierarchy that would be better?

Why does it matter? It's perfectly acceptable for all of them to be pieces of shit in their own right. You don't have to like the lesser of two evils.

Except in the real world, the Catholic Church isn't about to disappear, and somebody is going to be pope. So I ask again, who would you prefer?

[Plu]

I'm not going to like someone just because they're the least shitty choice. I'm just to claim "they're all shit" and leave it at that.

Pretending to like someone because the alternative would be worse is just dishonest bullshit. Somebody is going to be pope, and he's going to be shit, because they're all shit, and there's no need to like any pope until they miraculously put someone there who is actually likeable and not just the least terrible.

[_Xenu_]

I'm not going to like someone just because they're the least shitty choice. I'm just to claim "they're all shit" and leave it at that.

Pretending to like someone because the alternative would be worse is just dishonest bullshit. Somebody is going to be pope, and he's going to be shit, because they're all shit, and there's no need to like any pope until they miraculously put someone there who is actually likeable and not just the least terrible.

You have a right to that opinion, but I don't share it. I'm not going to let perfect become the enemy of good. Lets just agree to disagree.

[stromboli]

To those who don't like Francis, is there anyone you could name in the Catholic hierarchy that would be better?

Why does it matter? It's perfectly acceptable for all of them to be pieces of shit in their own right. You don't have to like the lesser of two evils.

Except in the real world, the Catholic Church isn't about to disappear, and somebody is going to be pope. So I ask again, who would you prefer?

I wouldn't prefer any of them. I'm am atheist.

[Plu]

I'm not going to let perfect become the enemy of good

He isn't "good" just because the's the least worst... that's a very strange way to make a scale that'll get you in all sorts of trouble.

[GSOgymrat]

I'm not going to like someone just because they're the least shitty choice. I'm just to claim "they're all shit" and leave it at that.

Pretending to like someone because the alternative would be worse is just dishonest bullshit. Somebody is going to be pope, and he's going to be shit, because they're all shit, and there's no need to like any pope until they miraculously put someone there who is actually likeable and not just the least terrible.

Thank you.

It doesn't matter who the Pope is or what the Pope says because you are dealing with an organization, not an individual, and the organization is based on dogma. The Catholic church isn't going to treat gays as equals, promote contraception, respect women's rights, decide rational decision making is more important than the Bible or that people are more important than God.

Once again, I don't care what the Pope says.

[Insult to Rocks]

It doesn't matter who the Pope is or what the Pope says because you are dealing with an organization, not an individual, and the organization is based on dogma. The Catholic church isn't going to treat gays as equals, promote contraception, respect women's rights, decide rational decision making is more important than the Bible or that people are more important than God.

Thank you for summing up all my problems with the popes celebrity status: what he does honestly has very little effect on what the church or his followers actually do. The sad truth is that most people who are homophobes are far too attached to their bigotry to simply let it go because someone asked them to, no matter who that person is.

[Cocoa Beware]

Except in the real world, the Catholic Church isn't about to disappear, and somebody is going to be pope. So I ask again, who would you prefer?

Im pretty sure its impossible to have an open minded pope with radically (or even mildly) independent views. Hes chosen from amongst his peers where no one would dare tolerate something like homosexuality.

So Im not sure it really matters.