Dear atheists, we ex muslims are waiting for you

[La Dolce Vita]

Reading the opinions here I'm slightly confused. In my experience atheists are more willing to criticize muslims than other religions rather than the other way around - and if you ask anyone on this forum I think you'll find them to agree that it's currently the worst major religion. I have therefor no clue where you get your premise that "atheists ignore muslim atrocities/want to give them a free pass, etc." from. I'm sure some do, but any kind of majority? Really?

[MitchellDaBomb]

Yeah Islamic extremism can be pretty bad. Fortunately most muslim people are accepting of others. its too bad that the extreme ones soil the name of the religion. Its also unfortunate that 9/11 happened. The US media over exaggerated the situation in my opinion. I'd say that around 1% of muslims are extremist, but thats only a guess :/

[frosty]

Reading the opinions here I'm slightly confused. In my experience atheists are more willing to criticize muslims than other religions rather than the other way around - and if you ask anyone on this forum I think you'll find them to agree that it's currently the worst major religion. I have therefor no clue where you get your premise that "atheists ignore muslim atrocities/want to give them a free pass, etc." from. I'm sure some do, but any kind of majority? Really?

Then you must have had a drastically different experience than me - where I was attacked, over, I would say about 4 years, in a constant joint group dynamic of Muslims and Atheists. I just wanted to get involved in political and religious discussions, and what happened? So called "freethinkers" treated me with the utmost disrespect for even suggesting we should criticize Islam a fraction of how they do for Christianity. People are naturally spiteful; they don't forget such treatment very easily.

What's even worse is that there truly is some type of mental blockage with neo-Atheists, lets call them, who feel any religion except Islam can be criticized. You really shouldn't act so perplexed at what you are reading here, maybe if so many Atheists weren't such stupid fucktards when it came to the topic of Islam and Muslims then the posts you are questioning wouldn't exist in the first place.

[baronvonrort]

I'd say that around 1% of muslims are extremist, but thats only a guess :/

It depends on your definition of extremist, i think those muslims who support death for apostasy and blasphemy are extremists.

The fairly recent Pew survey has the majority of muslims supporting  for the death penalty for apostasy and blasphemy, i reckon it is extreme to kill someone because they dont believe in fairy tales or mock that stupid belief from the dark ages.

If muslims cannot leave or criticise Islam in many Islamic parts of the world without the threat of death how can Islam be reformed?

It is blasphemy to suggest Islam needs reforming they chop your head off for that.

The persecution of the Ahmadi muslims by mainstream Islam proves Islam is extreme and cannot be reformed.

[La Dolce Vita]

Reading the opinions here I'm slightly confused. In my experience atheists are more willing to criticize muslims than other religions rather than the other way around - and if you ask anyone on this forum I think you'll find them to agree that it's currently the worst major religion. I have therefor no clue where you get your premise that "atheists ignore muslim atrocities/want to give them a free pass, etc." from. I'm sure some do, but any kind of majority? Really?

Then you must have had a drastically different experience than me - where I was attacked, over, I would say about 4 years, in a constant joint group dynamic of Muslims and Atheists. I just wanted to get involved in political and religious discussions, and what happened? So called "freethinkers" treated me with the utmost disrespect for even suggesting we should criticize Islam a fraction of how they do for Christianity. People are naturally spiteful; they don't forget such treatment very easily.

What's even worse is that there truly is some type of mental blockage with neo-Atheists, lets call them, who feel any religion except Islam can be criticized. You really shouldn't act so perplexed at what you are reading here, maybe if so many Atheists weren't such stupid fucktards when it came to the topic of Islam and Muslims then the posts you are questioning wouldn't exist in the first place.

Can you find any examples of this at all on this forum? Not that I'm sure this is a good sample, but as the large majority, if not all the atheists here seem to consider Islam the worst current religion, it would be weird if it was exactly the opposite in practice.

Of course, I'm from Norway, where the majority is atheist/agnostic and christianity is primarily just fading away, and Islam therefor being the most vocal religion, causing tons of dislike for said religion. I know it's different in the US - but it does seem like a huge amount of the forum members are from the US ... so please, find any examples here. The big name atheists also go after Islam. Seen Dawkins or Harris speak about it? I have never really seen them get flack for this from other atheists.

[frosty]

First, regarding your 1 percent comment:

I think you are being extremely generous towards them. I've talked to a lot of Muslims that are quite militant in their outlook, and you know what they tell me? They say there is no such thing as moderate or extreme Islam; only the true Islam, and they strive every day to follow it. Being extreme or moderate is often a matter of perception; militant jihadists don't often think they are extreme, they believe that they themselves are humble, decent, honest people. But that is not what I was complaining about anyways.

You ask me to find examples from this forum, and even though I wasn't totally talking about this forum, I see such an exercise as futile. Why? Because nobody wants to admit they are an apologist or a stooge for a corrupt, Old World ideology. Calling people out will only cause denial and fights. The people on this forum, and the ones on the other sites that I had those experiences with, see themselves as being for "justice" and being "anti bigot", things like that. For some reason they think the spread of Muslims and Islam is "progressive", and "good", and they defend such an ideology and people because they see it as an extension of their so called "progressive" views.

 It's all 'bout gettin dem der conservatives, ya C?

[Plu]

It's easy to continue to see  people as apologising for a religion if you not only refuse to call them out, but have already declared them guilty of being apologists and see them defending their views as proof of that very guilt.

It's also complete bullshit, of course.

[frosty]

It's easy to continue to see  people as apologising for a religion if you not only refuse to call them out, but have already declared them guilty of being apologists and see them defending their views as proof of that very guilt.

It's also complete bullshit, of course.

Thanks for proving my point. Seriously. It was that easy?

[Plu]

Lol.

[frosty]

Lol.

I really don't know what to say at this point, I could keep saying "you proved me right immediately" but then I risk a massive banhammer.

[La Dolce Vita]

First, regarding your 1 percent comment:

I think you are being extremely generous towards them. I've talked to a lot of Muslims that are quite militant in their outlook, and you know what they tell me? They say there is no such thing as moderate or extreme Islam; only the true Islam, and they strive every day to follow it. Being extreme or moderate is often a matter of perception; militant jihadists don't often think they are extreme, they believe that they themselves are humble, decent, honest people. But that is not what I was complaining about anyways.

1. You are replying to two completely different people. But I suppose you know that, just a very odd way of replying to both of us. I guess I can comment on this as well by stating that I'd certainly assume more than 1% of muslims are extreme. I'd label anyone willing to kill for their religion, or find this ok, as extremists - and yes, these numbers are high, and scary.

2. Of course extremists say that there's only "True Islam", and of course extremists don't think of themselves as extreme. Christian extremists/fundamentalists will say the exact same thing. There are however legions of moderate muslims. Bringing out how Islam can't change and pointing out how certain parts of Islam reacts to Islam that has changed, is a paradox. The moment you are admitting that there are moderate muslims and versions of Islam that reads the text differently, you have lost your case about Islam being unchanging.

You ask me to find examples from this forum, and even though I wasn't totally talking about this forum, I see such an exercise as futile. Why? Because nobody wants to admit they are an apologist or a stooge for a corrupt, Old World ideology. Calling people out will only cause denial and fights. The people on this forum, and the ones on the other sites that I had those experiences with, see themselves as being for "justice" and being "anti bigot", things like that. For some reason they think the spread of Muslims and Islam is "progressive", and "good", and they defend such an ideology and people because they see it as an extension of their so called "progressive" views.

 It's all 'bout gettin dem der conservatives, ya C?

No, I do not see. You claimed that the majority of atheists want to give Islam a pass - but nothing indicates it. You have no evidence for this extreme claim - and when asked to find examples from this huge sample size you decline because the evidence seemingly don't exist? So because your evidence don't exist, you create a hypothesis to explain why your claim must still be true ... This is "logic" based on faith!

"Assume conclusion, ignore all contradictory evidence"

With you seemingly argueing that Islam cannot change, it is very likely that people who react to you have nothing against bashing Islam/Muslims, but point out when you are (potentially) talking unsupported and/or bigoted claims.

Really, you claim that the majority of atheists believe that the spreading of islam is progressive and good. That is insane. It is obviously progressive and good to allow islam to spread, as not allowing this would mean we live in a fascist society that dictates what thoughts are ok. Equally allowing nazism to spread is progressive and good. The crazy and evil ideologies speading is not good - but not convicting people for throught crimes is. I obviously don't know your history enough, and I don't want to imply you don't know the distinction if you do, but I have argued with many who don't - and if you do not understand the distinction that you could come to the absurd and undocumented beliefs you have.

[Plu]

I'm not sure what options remain to prove you are wrong about me, or I might try. It seems like you've found the perfect way to judge everyone in the world guilty at a whim.

But you know, if you give me a way to show you how I'm not the person you are imagining (I'm surprised you even imagine anything; I don't share that much about myself) I'll give it a shot. Right now you can just call everyone whatever you want, because any attempt to defend will prove your point, no attempt to defend will prove your point, and calling you out on a rather silly and unfalsifiable standard apparently also proves your point.

[La Dolce Vita]

Plu, all you should need to say is: "Islam is currently (one of) the most harmful religion(s)", then you have bashed Islam, and even called it worse than the rest. If his claim is that you are one of the people who does not go after Islam like you do with other religions, he'd be demonstrated incorrect. Not sure if he'd care however. There seems to be a lot of blind faith here.

[Plu]

If that's all it takes Frosty just has to say so. But like you say, I don't think he cares. He seems to be operating in the religious order of actions; conclusions first, then seek evidence to support it.

[Mister Agenda]

I still don't understand why there seems to be some type of mental blockage here. One loose group of Atheists are trying to tell the other loose group of Atheists that Islam should be criticized like any other religion, and Muslims should not be exempt from criticism, and the second loose group of Atheists seem to be for the most part unbend-able to that idea.

Actually, it's one loose group of atheists trying to tell the other loose group of atheists that Islam should be criticized like any other religion while they criticize Islam in a different way from the way they criticize other religions. The first loose group of atheists seem unable to comprehend that criticizing the way they are critiquing Islam is not a defense of Islam, it's a defense of critical thought.

I've learned to accept over the years even if someone is an Atheist, they can still be a nuisance on the Internet. I learned to rise above the stupidity I saw from years of Internet squabbling, but now I see the same "omg don't insult Islam guyz" concept pushing through here and it's frustrating. It's frustrating, it's stagnant, it's pathetic, and for some reason there is a false equation that just because someone insults Islam they are a right winger. I am the farthest away from the right wing in my own right as I can be, and I just don't fucking understand why people defend Islam and Muslims so much.

Funny, I haven't seen ANY 'omg don't insult Ilam guyz'. I think you take any resistance to your ill-formed criticisms of Islam on the basis that they're ill-formed as some sort of partisanship for Islam and then exaggerate them for effect when you repeat them and wonder why the people you cover in your blanket statements don't respond positively. If you say Hitler loved to kick puppies and I say he didn't, I'm not defending Naziism, Hitler, or Nazis. I'm defending the idea that the things people say should actually be true.

I ain't nobody's sympathizer. I criticize ALL RELIGIONS, and if someone has a problem with me calling out Muslims and Islam then they are not true freethinkers.

True freethinking is using reason, logic, and evidence to determine your position. No one has a problem with you calling out Muslims and Islam as long as what you say about them is true. Hint: it's almost impossible to be correct when making a blanket statement about 1.3 billion people. Hint the second: a 'true freethinker' would not poison the well of discourse by presuming to be the arbiter of who is and isn't a 'true freethinker'.

If you're open to the idea of learning a little more about the principles of critical thinking, especially the avoidance of fallacies, you'll find that you can 'call out' Muslims and Islam more effectively.

For instance, Salafism is a pernicious influence in Sunni Islam that you'll find at the root of many Islamic terrorist groups. The USA should use its influence to aid reformist Muslim sects when they are in conflict with Salafists to keep Salafism from spreading further.

My criticism is fairly accurate and has the advantage of being able to be leveraged into more effective violence reduction because it addresses one of the greater sources of violence rather than trying to deal with the whole religion.

Christianity was as big a problem as Islam until it was muzzled by reformers internal to Christendom who systematically deprived it of political power. The same needs to happen with Islam, and treating it as one entity is an obstacle to reforming it. There are many Islams, though a lot of Muslims don't like to admit it, just as there are many Christianities and Judaisms. Sticking them under the same label is a convenient fiction that's a useful shorthand in conversation but an impediment as soon as you start talking about how to deal with them. Pentecostals, Southern Baptists, and conservative Catholics in the USA are often behind violations of the First Amendment. Liberal Quakers, Episopelians, and the UCC are usually not. Christianity is not monolithic, and neither is Islam. I wouldn't use an argument that starts 'all Christians', and I won't use one that starts 'all Muslims'. But if I DID, it would be recognizing that I am over-generalizing and I would be quick to clarify if someone seemed confused by my careless remarks.

I hope some of that was helpful for you to understand what is usually actually going on when atheists object to something you say about Islam or Muslims. We have a big contingent of rational skeptics who are sticklers for accuracy. It's okay not to hold to our standards of accuracy, but it's really not okay to assume we're motivated by a desire to defend the religion you're criticizing. We just want you to criticize it (and us) accurately.