Dear atheists, we ex muslims are waiting for you

[Passion of Christ]

That's because they have nothing to hide behind to excuse their terrible behaviour, I guess.

It could be a consequence of casting aside the man made baggage of religion giving you a more direct line to God, something Jesus himself advised people to do. Now all you need to do is believe in Gods existence as Jesus instructed and your journey to the dark side will be complete. Your spiritual power level would be through the roof.

[youtube:24qldhm7]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBtpyeLxVkI[/youtube:24qldhm7]

When your modus operandi is "whatever I do, god will forgive me" it's much easier to do horrible things than when it is "whatever I do, I have to live with for the rest of my life".

If you get the more direct line to God unsullied by dogma and human traditions you just won't feel like doing bad things. I think atheists get a taste of that action in their religionless state even if they're unaware of whats happening to them.

[Plu]

If you rephrase that as "If you realise that there is no god and you should be true to your own self, and no external entity", I'm totally aboard. Really, the two phrases come out to about the same thing.

[Giratina]

Eh, the New Testament has a lot of bullshit in it too. Including with Jesus, who, to my understanding, advocated slavery, usurpation, megalomania, and so on. And don't even get  me started on Paul. Point is, whether New or Old, both testaments are pretty terrible.

[The Fly]

I think in certain circles the article in the OP is extremely relevant. Of course I understand why some atheists in Muslim ran countries don't speak out, but I don't think that is who the article is addressing. There are certainly plenty of atheists that may indeed recognize the travesty that is the Muslim religion, yet are far more vocal in their despise of Christians. All the rationalizations for this I have seen so far seem to be based on the idea that because Christians are the majority in their particular country or perhaps that because Christians have more dominant influence in the world overall that its more important to shut them down. But I think this rationalization misses the point. Part of the power of the Brights is the unity and their commonly shared views and intelligence. While Ex-Muslims who are atheist are very much part of that group, they are just not receiving the same level of support from their fellow atheists as ex-Christians or other atheists are. What makes it worse is the fact that the very culture of Islam in our world makes Ex-Muslims extraordinarily rare. Even if a Muslim is in a reasonable country, that individual faces far worse reprecussions for leaving the religion. The fact that there are so few ex-Muslims is just another factor that perpetuates people staying with what's comfortable (even if it is absurd).

Of course Ex-Christians and Ex-Muslims can relate, but it really does seem like a majority of atheists (especially ex-Christians) are so self-absorbed that they spend all their breath and letters on their contempt for their former prison. They dominate the majority of anti-religion discourse, making ex-Muslims even more of a muted group. But that really is just the tip of the iceberg. We've got so much movement and traction on the Christian dilemma, so much I think we're winning the media battle overall. But for Muslims... no where close to the same. We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam so much and yet where is the organized movement to shut that down? I am not saying that such movements don't exist, but they pale in comparison.

Lastly, the excuse that opposing Islam is potentially more dangerous than opposing Christianity makes an even stronger case for the article. Clearly the article is addressing atheists in countries where reprecussions for opposing Islam are unlikely. Most of the time, the only people who are in danger of opposing Islam in the west are ex-Muslims or would be ex-Muslims. I really think those who are not ex-Muslims really have an obligation to be the voice and body for the ex-Muslims to hide behind. Yet, most of us are still on and on about how we hate Christianity and how awful our congress is full of them and yada yada. Truth is, Christianity is losing power on the daily. Islam, if anything, is on the rise, even in the West in many cases.

[Deidre32]

^^^ lol

Me thinks religion is the problem.

Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!

If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol

Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.

[Moriarty]

^^^ lol

Me thinks religion is the problem.

Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!

If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol

Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.

As U2 sang in the original version of "Bullet The Blue Sky"......."The God they believe isn't short on cash mister......."

I love em despite the religion.....ha.

[The Fly]

^^^ lol

Me thinks religion is the problem.

Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!

If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol

Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.

Wait what? I didn't say atheism is the problem. Atheists are to blame in this particular problem, and so yes that means I include myself in the list of that problem. I have been guilty of beating a dying horse over and over while my buddies could use some help bringing down their thriving behemoth. Just saying that sometimes we do focus on one too much so that it really hurts us as collective group.

[The Fly]

^^^ lol

Me thinks religion is the problem.

Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!

If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol

Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.

As U2 sang in the original version of "Bullet The Blue Sky"......."The God they believe isn't short on cash mister......."

I love em despite the religion.....ha.

Oh Moriarty I am so glad you posted this. U2 is my favorite band and I often keep it secret because 1.) Bono's pulpit,  and 2.) My friends typically make fun of me for liking a band that's so "mainstream". Outside of his religious views I really do think Bono is a great guy with good intentions (even if egotism is a big driver in those intentions). He does a lot of good work, imo.

If I ever get the chance to go to a U2 concert. I will probably die from excitement before I get to hear their first song.

Oh hey, curious... Since you are a fan of Moriarty, does this mean that you are Irish? I only ask because I know the guy who plays him in the BBC series "Sherlock", Andrew Scott, is from Ireland... I am a big fan of Andrew Scott and if you are too, I have a really interesting conversation he has with one of his directors that has some really interesting perspectives on religion and how it can effect artistic outlets. Good stuff.

[Deidre32]

^^^ lol

Me thinks religion is the problem.

Religions "competing" for headlines and "power."
How laughable!

If an almighty Creator exists, he doesn't need to be "marketed" through religion. Will the real god stand up? How many religions are there, all purporting "truth?" Lol

Gadfly, make no mistake about it. Atheism is not the problem. Religion is.

Wait what? I didn't say atheism is the problem. Atheists are to blame in this particular problem, and so yes that means I include myself in the list of that problem. I have been guilty of beating a dying horse over and over while my buddies could use some help bringing down their thriving behemoth. Just saying that sometimes we do focus on one too much so that it really hurts us as collective group.

Semantics. Atheists are tired of having theism pushed on them, especially when it comes to governing laws. Theism has no place for example dictating if two people in love, who are of the same sex, if they are legally allowed to marry. But theism er theists have been front and center on this issue. Where does the notion of one woman/one man eminate from? Bullshit religion! So, atheists are tired of remaining silent on important issues such as this. That's just one of several issues that religion tries to "own." The horse is far from dead.

[Mister Agenda]

I think in certain circles the article in the OP is extremely relevant. Of course I understand why some atheists in Muslim ran countries don't speak out, but I don't think that is who the article is addressing. There are certainly plenty of atheists that may indeed recognize the travesty that is the Muslim religion, yet are far more vocal in their despise of Christians. All the rationalizations for this I have seen so far seem to be based on the idea that because Christians are the majority in their particular country or perhaps that because Christians have more dominant influence in the world overall that its more important to shut them down.

The important thing is to call them 'rationalizations' so you don't have deal with them as actual reasons. We're not trying to 'shut Christians down'. We're trying to thwart their efforts to legislate their religion in our own countries. If a lot of Christians weren't on our side on this matter, we wouldn't have the numbers to stop it. We have at least a little power here because we can vote and advocate and educate.

But I think this rationalization misses the point. Part of the power of the Brights is the unity and their commonly shared views and intelligence. While Ex-Muslims who are atheist are very much part of that group, they are just not receiving the same level of support from their fellow atheists as ex-Christians or other atheists are.

Maybe that has something to do with it being a largely Western organization that conducts most of its affairs in English. To receive the same level of support as ex-Christians, there would have to be a comparable number of ex-Muslims involved. If rising atheism was primarily a Middle Eastern phenomenon, the players would be reversed: ex-Muslims would get plenty of support while ex-Christians would have to make do. It's the nature of the situation that has created the situation, not the personal failings of the individuals involved.

What makes it worse is the fact that the very culture of Islam in our world makes Ex-Muslims extraordinarily rare. Even if a Muslim is in a reasonable country, that individual faces far worse reprecussions for leaving the religion. The fact that there are so few ex-Muslims is just another factor that perpetuates people staying with what's comfortable (even if it is absurd).

The way to fix this is to reform Islam, which can be gradually accomplished by favoring more tolerant factions and making things difficult for less tolerant factions. Only be reducing the consequences can people be more free to leave the religion. Until fairly recently, the USA was supplying extremist-oriented textbooks to the Afghani school system. We've been shooting ourselves in the foot for decades. Iran was modernizing and liberalizing until we installed the Shah. So was Afghanistan until we armed the Mujahadeen to resist the Soviets, who were responding to a request from the president of Afghanistan to quell a rural uprising against modernity by what would become the Taliban. We prop up the House of Saud militarily. We basically spent fifty years making sure half the countries in the Middle East would become more conservative. America needs to be more aware of the likely repercussions for its actions. The world would be a better place today for ex-Muslims and everyone else if we had been bearing that in mind all along.

Of course Ex-Christians and Ex-Muslims can relate, but it really does seem like a majority of atheists (especially ex-Christians) are so self-absorbed that they spend all their breath and letters on their contempt for their former prison. They dominate the majority of anti-religion discourse, making ex-Muslims even more of a muted group.

They're not a muted group. They're a small group. There's a difference.

But that really is just the tip of the iceberg. We've got so much movement and traction on the Christian dilemma, so much I think we're winning the media battle overall. But for Muslims... no where close to the same. We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam so much and yet where is the organized movement to shut that down? I am not saying that such movements don't exist, but they pale in comparison.

That the media sympathizes with Islam to a point that it's a problem is a bare assertion. I'd say it sympathizes with Islam just enough that incidents of mosque desecration and vandalism and shooting of random Muslims (and Sikhs, because They Look Muslim to some people) in the USA are fairly rare.  

Lastly, the excuse that opposing Islam is potentially more dangerous than opposing Christianity makes an even stronger case for the article.

This is a canard. We don't go easy on Islam cause we're askeered of the Muslims. It was atheists who came up with Draw Mohammed Day. Even if you're irrationally afraid of Muslim retaliation, they can't get us over the internet.

Clearly the article is addressing atheists in countries where reprecussions for opposing Islam are unlikely.

Clearly to you, maybe.

Most of the time, the only people who are in danger of opposing Islam in the west are ex-Muslims or would be ex-Muslims.

Glad we got that cleared up.

I really think those who are not ex-Muslims really have an obligation to be the voice and body for the ex-Muslims to hide behind.

By going on ignorant anti-Islamic rants? Because that is basically what separates the atheists who 'stand for the ex-Muslims' from the rest of the atheists who like to have their facts straight, even when talking about religious folks.

Yet, most of us are still on and on about how we hate Christianity and how awful our congress is full of them and yada yada. Truth is, Christianity is losing power on the daily. Islam, if anything, is on the rise, even in the West in many cases.

It's losing power because of our efforts. We were pretty much silent between O'Hair and Dawkins, and a major US political party became an arm of the religious right. The question is not whether we are opposing fundamentalist Christianity aimed at turning the USA into a theocracy (see Dominionism and how many political figures are Dominionists) too much, it's whether we are opposing it enough. Sure, we win in the long run...but not by slacking off in our own backyards. There is legislation in multiple states eroding church state separation every year, and every one of them has to be countered.

What are YOU doing to oppose Islam, by the way?

[The Fly]

The important thing is to call them 'rationalizations' so you don't have deal with them as actual reasons. We're not trying to 'shut Christians down'. We're trying to thwart their efforts to legislate their religion in our own countries. If a lot of Christians weren't on our side on this matter, we wouldn't have the numbers to stop it. We have at least a little power here because we can vote and advocate and educate.  

I understand that. You can also call rationalizations, "excuses". I am not trying to be pejorative. I just think we as atheists need to be critical of everyone, especially ourselves.. A lot of atheists, including myself, have a harder time doing that than they let on.

Maybe that has something to do with it being a largely Western organization that conducts most of its affairs in English. To receive the same level of support as ex-Christians, there would have to be a comparable number of ex-Muslims involved. If rising atheism was primarily a Middle Eastern phenomenon, the players would be reversed: ex-Muslims would get plenty of support while ex-Christians would have to make do. It's the nature of the situation that has created the situation, not the personal failings of the individuals involved.

That's a good point. I just think its something we should be actively trying to change in ourselves, even if that's an uphill battle due to the social conditions. I don't think I agree with you that in order for ex-Muslims to receive the same level of support as ex-Christian they have to be similar in number. I think we need to talk in terms of proportions. ex-Muslims tend to get proportionally less explicit and implicit support than their ex-Christian counter-part. And hell, given the ex-Muslims have to uniquely go through given the very nature of the situation you speak up, we should try to give them disproportionate support in their favor.

The way to fix this is to reform Islam, which can be gradually accomplished by favoring more tolerant factions and making things difficult for less tolerant factions. Only be reducing the consequences can people be more free to leave the religion. Until fairly recently, the USA was supplying extremist-oriented textbooks to the Afghani school system. We've been shooting ourselves in the foot for decades. Iran was modernizing and liberalizing until we installed the Shah. So was Afghanistan until we armed the Mujahadeen to resist the Soviets, who were responding to a request from the president of Afghanistan to quell a rural uprising against modernity by what would become the Taliban. We prop up the House of Saud militarily. We basically spent fifty years making sure half the countries in the Middle East would become more conservative. America needs to be more aware of the likely repercussions for its actions. The world would be a better place today for ex-Muslims and everyone else if we had been bearing that in mind all along.

+1,000,000

They're not a muted group. They're a small group. There's a difference.

There is a difference, sure. But given human nature in social condition, small groups also tend to be muted groups as a result.

That the media sympathizes with Islam to a point that it's a problem is a bare assertion. I'd say it sympathizes with Islam just enough that incidents of mosque desecration and vandalism and shooting of random Muslims (and Sikhs, because They Look Muslim to some people) in the USA are fairly rare.

That's a fair point. I never thought about it from that perspective.

This is a canard. We don't go easy on Islam cause we're askeered of the Muslims. It was atheists who came up with Draw Mohammed Day. Even if you're irrationally afraid of Muslim retaliation, they can't get us over the internet.

I was sort of responding to a few fellow posters that proffered that rationalization. Plus, that was the point I was trying to make.

Clearly to you, maybe.

You disagree with that statement? I am surprised. I am curious to hear your reading of it.

By going on ignorant anti-Islamic rants? Because that is basically what separates the atheists who 'stand for the ex-Muslims' from the rest of the atheists who like to have their facts straight, even when talking about religious folks.

I think we're a group that needs a bit more cohesion. We do have to be careful not to turn into some fascist revolution, but we need to stand together more often.

I see your point though. Perhaps I should change that statement to, "we have an obligation to seek the truth in all situations and when it becomes apparent, we need to shift our focus where it deserves."

It's losing power because of our efforts. We were pretty much silent between O'Hair and Dawkins, and a major US political party became an arm of the religious right. The question is not whether we are opposing fundamentalist Christianity aimed at turning the USA into a theocracy (see Dominionism and how many political figures are Dominionists) too much, it's whether we are opposing it enough. Sure, we win in the long run...but not by slacking off in our own backyards. There is legislation in multiple states eroding church state separation every year, and every one of them has to be countered.

I am not saying we are focusing too much attention on Christianity. I am saying that in comparison to Islam, Christianity is getting too much attention as to be harmful to those who need our help dismantling their behemoth. I understand not agreeing with the article's implications. But I do think it's important to keep an open mind to what could be our own failings, even if others are to blame in the end.

What are YOU doing to oppose Islam, by the way?

Not enough :( That's why I tried to include myself in all my critical arguments. I am sorry if I fell short of that goal and came across as being on a high-horse.

[The Fly]

Semantics. Atheists are tired of having theism pushed on them, especially when it comes to governing laws. Theism has no place for example dictating if two people in love, who are of the same sex, if they are legally allowed to marry. But theism er theists have been front and center on this issue. Where does the notion of one woman/one man eminate from? Bullshit religion! So, atheists are tired of remaining silent on important issues such as this. That's just one of several issues that religion tries to "own." The horse is far from dead.

Yes it was semantics. The reason I clarified is because by your choice of the word "atheism" you incorrectly inferred that I was saying atheism is the problem, which is opposite of the truth.  

Semantics is important, so please don't trivialize it.

[The Fly]

You are confusing politics and manipulation with some genuine 'heroic battle' against a religion. This is an atheist delusion very much like religious people have. The politically correct attitude towards Islam of politicians, media, business partners...etc is a result of a very simple fact no one really cares who is a victim of what.

First off, Drunken, I have the feeling I am going to really enjoy picking your brain from time to time. I enjoy your input.

Your last sentence there is what I think is called the fundamental attribution error. That position you hold isn't any more objectively true than the critical position I try to place on fellow atheists and myself. Not to say it is completely invalid, its just that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to falsify your assertion, I think, so it loses some objectivity.

No body; no power zone, organisation, state, government has ever had an agenda to stop Islam. Islam is profitable on many levels. Islamic threat is very needed in Western world and it is mostly 'created' fear around an event (9/11) which was just an eventual outcome of decades of mingling, dividing, radicalising the region for this or that reason.

That is false. There have been and are initiative in the west and east that have an agenda to stop Islam. I am surprised that you are unaware of that.

An American society where people are NOT scared or paranoid of some sort of a threat (communists, muslims...) to them is uncontrollable. That American is a world citizen and she/he is unacceptable to the American state. You could say this for another country, but no, in US scale this would be a whole new level of thing. There is no profit, no vote, not one benefit for the destructive self serving power US is in this. Nobody gets rich or powerful with that American society.

This is the reality of what you are talking about up there. This is the intellectual American's 'socratic cave'. And the shadows that occupy him on the cave's wall that he is chained to. He feels comfortable for now and sees his tyrant as a hero with a few 'mistakes'.  

I don't disagree with your analysis here. I am not sure how it directly relates to my position, but I am listening.

Sorry, again, I am not trying to be pejorative and I try hard not to stand on my ivory tower, I just suck sometimes. Perhaps we both need to try and come down from it.

And it annoys everyone that there is no criticism, no backlash against this destructive religion that crushes people which is very comical however you look at it in the big picture.

I am confused by this statement. First you say not one entity has had an agenda to stop Islam and then you say it annoys EVERYONE that no one is working against Islam. That is contradictory, unless I am misreading what you are saying (given my history that is probably it).

About atheists from muslim countries I can say lot of things, because I am one. I am not an ex muslim, I haven't participated in any mass delusion of the sort, but most people always see me as some sort of an 'apologist'. But I was born in one and living there. (I even coincided with western people who insisted to treat me as a 'muslim', because they simply couldn't wrap their heads around about my situation.) Do you know why? Because I can say "hold on, this is not as you are conditioned to think, this like this and other is that way". If you try to make an explanation about that society you live in, voice the very obvious parallels BAM, you are an apologist. (If you are a westerner, you are a liberal in the same scenario) The fact that people are people has no weight if you are talking about an islamic society. Because muslims are not people. Doesn't matter what the politically correct talk follows. And saying all these things is 'ranting'.

You do bring a perspective that westerners, including myself, have a hard time understanding. Do you live in the West now or are you still in the middle east (or some other Muslims country). I understand if you don't want to answer that, I just was curious how much time you've spent over in the West. A lot of my perspective comes from the fact that I am indeed from the west (more specifically the US) and as a result of my observations, I have become more and more critical of not only the way the US comes across on a large scale, but specifically how American atheists treat atheism itself. I'd like to get your opinion on that.

I am trying to be clear that perhaps the first atheist to be criticized here is myself. I hope I am not creating some sort of double standard here. I trust you and others will keep me in check, so that's good.

Anyway, what you are suggesting in general is a delusion. You cannot evolve a religion or fight against it that way and more importantly there is no agenda to do that for any power that can technically be effective on it.

I am really going to mull this over and come back to it. It is hard to come out of a delusion when you can't see it. And so if you are right in that I have embraced some sort of delusion, I am going to need to work on re-hardwiring my brain somehow. If you have some tips on how to do that, let me know.

Anyway, thanks for your unique input!

[Bibliofagus]

We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam.

 :rollin:

You live in the middle east or something?

[The Fly]

We've got a media that sympathizes with Islam.

 :rollin:

You live in the middle east or something?

Nope, the US.