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Atheists just hate God!

Started by sab, December 16, 2013, 07:03:23 AM

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gracedwithlife

What sort of early texts or corroborating sources and badly needed eyewitness group accounts do you have for Zahak?

For Jesus we have 45 ancient texts within 150 years of his death, 17 of which are non-Christian sources.  He is documented more than any 10 figures in antiquity combined.

And many places and events are multiply corroborated with Roman authorities, Jewish authorities and other writers. We even have writers such Clement of Rome and Polycarp who said they knew Paul and Peter personally before they were martyred in the Neronian persecutions. Peter was one of the eyewitnesses in various group settings seeing Jesus alive from the dead proving He is God. He spent 3 years with Jesus.

Shiranu

Very little, the only text would be from the Shahnameh (1000 c.e.) of the ruler Zah?k, but references to the demon (Aži Dah?ka) from which his story was tied to (the demon most likely himself was just a very terrible person of the past that was mythologized) are scattered throughout Zoroastrian text and stories. Infact he is the most significant of the ažis in Zoroastrian texts, some of which date all the way back to the 500's b.c.e. .

I personally do not have the numbers for how often he is cited in Persian text because unfortunately I did not grow up in a culture that values that information like we value Jewish-Christian history, and on top of that much of Persia's culture has been integrated or irradiated by the cultures that have conquered them over the years. Obviously there are no eye-witness accounts because he was a mythological being, much like the angel who came down and told Mary she would be impregnated or what have you.

I do not know about Polycarp and Clement, so I won't remark on them, but I know several sources have been shown to be dubious at best if not out-right debunked. If you are not including them, and P&C are legit, then that is interesting but in no way proves the divinity of Christ.

That said, I buy very much into Reza Aslan's view of Christ, which many atheists disagree with; I think he likely was a man, or several men whom's stories and teachings were put into one, who grew up in the region attributed to him and said many of the things he said. However, just because a man named Yeshua existed and had followers does not make him divine.

Using that logic, you could just as easily argue that Muhammad was therefor divine, or Benny Hinn if we want to go more modern. There is more evidence of Muhammad existing (afaik) than Jesus, as well as his teachings (orders?), and yet this does not therefor make him divine. Likewise many people have claimed that Benny Hinn and that Moon fellow preformed miracles, but there is no evidence OF the miracles; only eyewitness accounts and hearsay.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

gracedwithlife

Quote from: "Shiranu"Very little, the only text would be from the Shahnameh (1000 c.e.) of the ruler Zah?k, but references to the demon (Aži Dah?ka) from which his story was tied to (the demon most likely himself was just a very terrible person of the past that was mythologized) are scattered throughout Zoroastrian text and stories. Infact he is the most significant of the ažis in Zoroastrian texts, some of which date all the way back to the 500's b.c.e.
When were these events suppose to have taken place?  

QuoteObviously there are no eye-witness accounts because he was a mythological being, much like the angel who came down and told Mary she would be impregnated or what have you.
We don't need to worry about an angel speaking to Mary, because this naturally follows from the main proof that group hallucinations of the eyewitness are impossible in 12 different group settings recorded in the Bible.

QuoteI think he likely was a man, or several men whom's stories and teachings were put into one
People don't willingly die for what they know is a lie, and all the Apostles were martyred for their eyewitness faith.

QuoteUsing that logic, you could just as easily argue that Muhammad was therefor divine, or Benny Hinn if we want to go more modern. There is more evidence of Muhammad existing (afaik) than Jesus, as well as his teachings (orders?), and yet this does not therefor make him divine. Likewise many people have claimed that Benny Hinn and that Moon fellow preformed miracles, but there is no evidence OF the miracles; only eyewitness accounts and hearsay.
There is no multiple group eyewitness testimony of Muhammad or Benny Hinn alive from the dead. Moreover, you know Muhammad was a liar, because he came along six centuries later and made a claim that Jesus never even went to the cross with nothing to support his claim. Benny Hinn is a fraud because of his "gibberish babble" and misuse of laying on of hands for show not for reality. Tongues are a gift of languages to spread the gospel to the nations, not gibberish babble that was used by a second century cult called Montanism.

Jesus is the most documented person in antiquity more than any 10 figures combined. This point is made not to prove Jesus is God, but to disallow you from claiming there is not enough sources.

What makes Jesus God is no man can resurrect himself. This proof the Bible gives us is the best proof you could ask for. You nor I can think of a better proof for God revealing Himself to us.

Shiranu

QuoteWhen were these events suppose to have taken place?

Long before 500 b.c.e.. They were not as interested in the historical truth of it happen but more of the morals and meanings of the stories.

QuotePeople don't willingly die for what they know is a lie, and all the Apostles were martyred for their eyewitness faith.

Just because they believed it to be true did not make it so though, even if it was eye witness. Men fought and died for Muhammad because they believed him to be a messenger of Allah, yet again this does not validate the divinity of him.

QuoteThere is no multiple group eyewitness testimony of Muhammad or Benny Hinn alive from the dead.

The only evidence we have of Jesus' rebirth is the story of several people who had their own agendas for telling that story. We do not have Jesus talking to record keepers, or even anyone outside of his group, post death.

QuoteJesus is the most documented person in antiquity more than any 10 figures combined.

That is just straight up wrong.

QuoteThis proof the Bible gives us is the best proof you could ask for.

How so? It is no more reliable than a Qu'ran, Torah or the Egyptian Book of the Dead because it was written by people trying to tell a story of morality, not of historical accuracy.
"A little science distances you from God, but a lot of science brings you nearer to Him." - Louis Pasteur

gracedwithlife

Quote from: "Shiranu"
QuoteWhen were these events suppose to have taken place?
Long before 500 b.c.e.. They were not as interested in the historical truth of it happen but more of the morals and meanings of the stories.
We can disregard that stuff then because there is no evidence and the texts are too many centuries later to have any credibility.

Quote
QuotePeople don't willingly die for what they know is a lie, and all the Apostles were martyred for their eyewitness faith.
Just because they believed it to be true did not make it so though, even if it was eye witness. Men fought and died for Muhammad because they believed him to be a messenger of Allah, yet again this does not validate the divinity of him.
What it does do is show they truly believed they were with Jesus for 40 days after His death so as not to be lying about it, but since group hallucinations are medically impossible, we know that it is true, proving Jesus is God. Whereas fighting for Muhammad can be a delusion, and most certainly is a delusion because Jesus died on the cross and Muhammad six centuries later said otherwise.

Quote
QuoteThere is no multiple group eyewitness testimony of Muhammad or Benny Hinn alive from the dead.
The only evidence we have of Jesus' rebirth is the story of several people who had their own agendas for telling that story. We do not have Jesus talking to record keepers, or even anyone outside of his group, post death.
You don not need to worry about Jesus' birth, like I said, because the main proof is in the eyewitness accounts, for which there is no naturalistic explanation, so you know Jesus resurrected Himself proving He is God. A virgin birth naturally follows.

Quote
QuoteJesus is the most documented person in antiquity more than any 10 figures combined.
That is just straight up wrong.
That is 100% fact. Jesus has 45 sources, 17 of which are non-Christian. Tiberius who died 4 years after Jesus had the second most sources from antiquity, only 9 sources, within 150 years after the person's death.

Quote
QuoteThis proof the Bible gives us is the best proof you could ask for.
How so? It is no more reliable than a Qu'ran, Torah or the Egyptian Book of the Dead because it was written by people trying to tell a story of morality, not of historical accuracy.
Group eyewitness testimony of a person alive from the dead died who were martyred for that testimony is the best evidential proof you could ask for as you can think of no better. No such evidence is given for the Koran, Torah, Egyptian books. Like you said, they are just telling stories. And you know the Koran is wrong because its story is false that Jesus never went to the cross.

My faith is simple. The lawyer in the Guinness Book of Records who won 400 cases in a row said the best legal case he has ever seen in his life is for the life, death, burial, resurrection and deity of Jesus.

God will not fault you for giving your life to Christ because it is based on the best evidence of any religion.

stromboli

Quote from: "gracedwithlife"What sort of early texts or corroborating sources and badly needed eyewitness group accounts do you have for Zahak?

For Jesus we have 45 ancient texts within 150 years of his death, 17 of which are non-Christian sources.  He is documented more than any 10 figures in antiquity combined.

And many places and events are multiply corroborated with Roman authorities, Jewish authorities and other writers. We even have writers such Clement of Rome and Polycarp who said they knew Paul and Peter personally before they were martyred in the Neronian persecutions. Peter was one of the eyewitnesses in various group settings seeing Jesus alive from the dead proving He is God. He spent 3 years with Jesus.

Wrong. Jesus is not documented any more than Harry Potter or Frodo. You can't prove that Jesus is based on anything but an unknown historical person who was written about and elevated to deity by works of fiction. There is not one document written that can be proven to be anything but fiction, based on then current beliefs. Every single case you can make about the truth of Jesus has been presented here and shot down half a dozen times. The Bible is full of contradictions, every book was written in second or third person, and there is no corresponding, objective evidence to back it historically or any other way.

Objective evidence outside of what Christians claim does not support their claims, period.

gracedwithlife

Quote from: "stromboli"
Quote from: "gracedwithlife"What sort of early texts or corroborating sources and badly needed eyewitness group accounts do you have for Zahak?

For Jesus we have 45 ancient texts within 150 years of his death, 17 of which are non-Christian sources.  He is documented more than any 10 figures in antiquity combined.

And many places and events are multiply corroborated with Roman authorities, Jewish authorities and other writers. We even have writers such Clement of Rome and Polycarp who said they knew Paul and Peter personally before they were martyred in the Neronian persecutions. Peter was one of the eyewitnesses in various group settings seeing Jesus alive from the dead proving He is God. He spent 3 years with Jesus.

Wrong. Jesus is not documented any more than Harry Potter or Frodo. You can't prove that Jesus is based on anything but an unknown historical person who was written about and elevated to deity by works of fiction. There is not one document written that can be proven to be anything but fiction, based on then current beliefs. Every single case you can make about the truth of Jesus has been presented here and shot down half a dozen times. The Bible is full of contradictions, every book was written in second or third person, and there is no corresponding, objective evidence to back it historically or any other way.

Objective evidence outside of what Christians claim does not support their claims, period.
Jesus has more sources of Him than any ten figures in antiquity combined. If He didn't exist then nobody did. Of those 45 ancient sources, 17 of them were non-Christian sources.

stromboli

Quote from: "gracedwithlife"
Quote from: "stromboli"
Quote from: "gracedwithlife"What sort of early texts or corroborating sources and badly needed eyewitness group accounts do you have for Zahak?

For Jesus we have 45 ancient texts within 150 years of his death, 17 of which are non-Christian sources.  He is documented more than any 10 figures in antiquity combined.

And many places and events are multiply corroborated with Roman authorities, Jewish authorities and other writers. We even have writers such Clement of Rome and Polycarp who said they knew Paul and Peter personally before they were martyred in the Neronian persecutions. Peter was one of the eyewitnesses in various group settings seeing Jesus alive from the dead proving He is God. He spent 3 years with Jesus.

Wrong. Jesus is not documented any more than Harry Potter or Frodo. You can't prove that Jesus is based on anything but an unknown historical person who was written about and elevated to deity by works of fiction. There is not one document written that can be proven to be anything but fiction, based on then current beliefs. Every single case you can make about the truth of Jesus has been presented here and shot down half a dozen times. The Bible is full of contradictions, every book was written in second or third person, and there is no corresponding, objective evidence to back it historically or any other way.

Objective evidence outside of what Christians claim does not support their claims, period.
Jesus has more sources of Him than any ten figures in antiquity combined. If He didn't exist then nobody did. Of those 45 ancient sources, 17 of them were non-Christian sources.

lets see them.

gracedwithlife

Quote from: "stromboli"lets see them.
You can find them all nicely compiled in the award winning The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas and Mike Licona.

stromboli

Quote from: "gracedwithlife"
Quote from: "stromboli"lets see them.
You can find them all nicely compiled in the award winning The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas and Mike Licona.

Wrong. You came here, we didn't go to you. If you want to state your case on this forum you have to do exactly that. This was all started by you, either carry it through or leave.

gracedwithlife

Quote from: "stromboli"
Quote from: "gracedwithlife"
Quote from: "stromboli"lets see them.
You can find them all nicely compiled in the award winning The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas and Mike Licona.

Wrong. You came here, we didn't go to you. If you want to state your case on this forum you have to do exactly that. This was all started by you, either carry it through or leave.
The burden is on you to show there are more sources for someone else than Jesus.

leo

The burden proof is on you to prove your bullshit claims.
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

gracedwithlife

Quote from: "leo"The burden proof is in you to prove your bullshit claims.
I am not trying to prove a bulshit claim like claiming infinite regress.

leo

Quote from: "gracedwithlife"
Quote from: "stromboli"lets see them.
You can find them all nicely compiled in the award winning The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus by Gary R. Habermas and Mike Licona.
We want real sources . We don't care about bullshit books written by people with agendas.
Religion is Bullshit  . The winner of the last person to post wins thread .

stromboli

Quote from: "gracedwithlife"
Quote from: "leo"The burden proof is in you to prove your bullshit claims.
I am not trying to prove a bulshit claim like claiming infinite regress.

No. You came here, you made the accusations, you made the claims. Your case. Present the evidence or STFU and leave. Go cry to daddy you didn't get your Barbie doll, waa.