How Feminism Hurts Men

[Nonsensei]

Are you seriously suggesting that "women and children first" is as urgent as fixing the rape epidemic? Something that happens in extreme situations versus something that happens a thousand times a day?

Being an "issue" doesn't give it equal priority.

You realize you're taking the most dramatic women's issue and comparing it to a relatively trifling men's issue and then using that comparison to justify ignoring everything except the stuff you care about, right?

Or do you really believe that the most urgent men's issue is no more grave than "women and children first"? If so then that explains a LOT.

[Sargon The Grape]

Or do you really believe that the most urgent men's issue is no more grave than "women and children first"? If so then that explains a LOT.

If this is the best retort you can come up with, I'm not even going to bother.

[Nonsensei]

Or do you really believe that the most urgent men's issue is no more grave than "women and children first"? If so then that explains a LOT.

If this is the best retort you can come up with, I'm not even going to bother.

It wasn't a retort it was a question. I don't understand wtf you're thinking, and you are just fucking horrible at expressing yourself on this issue.

I'm pretty sure its because, in fact, you really don't give the slightest shit about any men's issues no matter what they are. But you feel like you will "lose" the discussion if you just admit that in plain English. So you come up with these vague, stupid analogies and comparisons so you can still sneer at the idea of men's issues being worth addressing without coming right out and doing so.

Tell me im wrong.

Or you know, just act like responding is beneath you. Again.

[Sargon The Grape]

It wasn't a retort it was a question. I don't understand wtf you're thinking, and you are just fucking horrible at expressing yourself on this issue.

Don't hold it in, tell us how you really feel. :roll:

I'm pretty sure its because, in fact, you really don't give the slightest shit about any men's issues no matter what they are.

As a man who has combated male issues on multiple occasions in his personal life, this would be a rather odd stance for me to take. It's also rather presumptuous for you to assume that.

But you feel like you will "lose" the discussion if you just admit that in plain English.

Or maybe it's because that is not my view on the matter, nor have I ever implied such. Do you really not understand the concept of priorities?

So you come up with these vague, stupid analogies and comparisons so you can still sneer at the idea of men's issues being worth addressing without coming right out and doing so.

You have not explained why the expendable male is a trifling issue, nor given an example of what you believe constitutes a more serious one. In any case, I was opting for a well-known example rather than an equivalent one, as you have given me no reason to believe that you are at all versed in male issues. But even if I had used a more urgent example, the fact remains that no male issue compares to the rape epidemic, and that's just a fact. That is unless you honestly believe that statistics like "one in three women are sexually assaulted" actually have an equivalent in the male side of things. (Which they don't.)

Tell me im wrong.

You're wrong. 8-)

Or you know, just act like responding is beneath you. Again.

If you honestly can't figure out why I might not feel the need to respond to strawman arguments, you should step out of this debate.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I don't believe for one bit that feminism in any way hurts men.
Promoting equality and ethical treatment of the female gender can't hurt men in any way.

It is because I believe in equality and ethical treatment of both genders that I refuse to refer to my beliefs as feminist.

[frosty]

1 in 3 women get sexually assaulted? Where? In some countries, in the western world, I even see statistics like 1 in 2 women will be sexually harassed in specific incidents before they turn 25. Either way, those numbers are HUGE and if they are accurate represents a huge problem. I try to stay out of debates like this because they tend to turn into an absolute shitfest (as seen above), but it is appalling that women get paid less than men in any job that they do. They are human, they complete the job, they should get paid the exact same rate as a man would based on how they completed that skill to the best of their abilities. People with certain skills should of course move up in the work chain but that should be based on skill alone and never gender.

[SilentFutility]

1 in 3 women get sexually assaulted? Where?

I think it's probably closer to 3 in 3 women that will be spoken to in an elevator within their lifetimes.

Also, in Western Europe, how large is the pay gap for THE SAME work really?
The statistic that women get paid less for full time work on average is completely and utterly useless when determining fair pay for the same work as it is making the assumption that all work is exactly the same.

I'm not saying that the pay gap is non-existent, but wouldn't it be productive to actually quantify it properly? It is actually relatively difficult to find any sort of actual statistic properly measuring unfair pay for equal work given that it is such a big, controversial issue.

[Mermaid]

1 in 3 women get sexually assaulted? Where? In some countries, in the western world, I even see statistics like 1 in 2 women will be sexually harassed in specific incidents before they turn 25. Either way, those numbers are HUGE and if they are accurate represents a huge problem.

I can relate my own personal experiences, and I've had two different random men jerk off in front of me when I was a girl walking down the street with friends, was felt up by a gross old uncle and another guy who was a friend of my grandmother's when I was very little, and was actually sexually assaulted as a teenager. That's not even counting the overt sexual harassment at work that's happened twice. I was raised in a wealthy suburb under fortunate circumstances-I can't imagine how it is for other women, only myself. I'd say it's a pretty real problem in the US.

I'm not saying that the pay gap is non-existent, but wouldn't it be productive to actually quantify it properly? It is actually relatively difficult to find any sort of actual statistic properly measuring unfair pay for equal work given that it is such a big, controversial issue.

I think it's because this is such a complicated sociocultural issue. It's hard to measure when women can be less assertive and self-promoting, among other factors.

[frosty]

1 in 3 women get sexually assaulted? Where? In some countries, in the western world, I even see statistics like 1 in 2 women will be sexually harassed in specific incidents before they turn 25. Either way, those numbers are HUGE and if they are accurate represents a huge problem.

I can relate my own personal experiences, and I've had two different random men jerk off in front of me when I was a girl walking down the street with friends, was felt up by a gross old uncle and another guy who was a friend of my grandmother's when I was very little, and was actually sexually assaulted as a teenager. That's not even counting the overt sexual harassment at work that's happened twice. I was raised in a wealthy suburb under fortunate circumstances-I can't imagine how it is for other women, only myself. I'd say it's a pretty real problem in the US.

I'm not saying that the pay gap is non-existent, but wouldn't it be productive to actually quantify it properly? It is actually relatively difficult to find any sort of actual statistic properly measuring unfair pay for equal work given that it is such a big, controversial issue.

I think it's because this is such a complicated sociocultural issue. It's hard to measure when women can be less assertive and self-promoting, among other factors.

That seems extremely over the top if I may say so. I hear about such incidents as the one on the street happening once in a while but other than that, no. Probably because I live my own life and don't go looking for such stories to begin with. I would speculate that the oversexualization of society has a role to play in the awful skyrocketing of such incidents, but that would probably start another argument in itself in this over-opinionated and quite frankly hostile thread.

[Mermaid]

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't over the top. I don't really think so though.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Jeez, Merms, that's awful.

It is because I believe in equality and ethical treatment of both genders that I refuse to refer to my beliefs as feminist.

Well-said.

[Smartmarzipan]

1 in 3 women get sexually assaulted? Where? In some countries, in the western world, I even see statistics like 1 in 2 women will be sexually harassed in specific incidents before they turn 25. Either way, those numbers are HUGE and if they are accurate represents a huge problem.

I can relate my own personal experiences....

Unfortunately, when some men see the statistics and scoff and then a woman tells of her own personal experiences, they will say "well, that's just what happened to you, that doesn't happen to most women". I'm not saying the guys here are saying that, but I've been met with that response when I shared my own stories of sexual assault and harassment many times before. Hell, I was even told it was my fault. "Oh, it happened to you? Well, that was just you...it can't possibly happen to 1 in 3 women...that's crazy." Yeah. Yeah, it is. :|

[Mermaid]

I just shared that because I have to wonder how many women are out there who have had the same experiences. I think I've had my share, for sure. Fortunately I grew up relatively ok  =P~  *eye twitch*
and am a pretty emotionally stable and happy person. But it makes me sad to think that if this is my story, how many other women share this and a lot worse? I think way too many.

I don't know what this has to do with feminism and this thread, though. Heh.

[Shiranu]

I think it's probably closer to 3 in 3 women that will be spoken to in an elevator within their lifetimes.

Holy. Shit.

So sexual assault is, "Meh, they probably were just spoken to in an elevator"...

Man, these threads can bring out the dark shit in people's closets.

[Mermaid]

I think it's probably closer to 3 in 3 women that will be spoken to in an elevator within their lifetimes.

Holy. Shit.

So sexual assault is, "Meh, they probably were just spoken to in an elevator"...

Man, these threads can bring out the dark shit in people's closets.

I took that as a euphemism, not literally.