Why Islam will fail long term.

[Brian37]

Islam has been here since before 700 CE and currently has 1.57 billion members. I don't think that qualifies as "failing".

Um 700 years is nothing compared to 500,000 years of evolution. It will fail if it doesn't have it's own Jefferson. I am not talking about liberal Muslims in the west, I am talking about the east.

[frosty]

Islam has been here since before 700 CE and currently has 1.57 billion members. I don't think that qualifies as "failing".

Political Islam is a joke though. It is failing in almost every place it has been implemented in. Most Muslims that exist these days are not true followers of Islam. Yes, I am allowed to say it. The so called "extremists" are right. To truly follow Islam is to follow the Quran and what they refer to as the "Sunnah". Mixing in anything else is apostasy. In that sense, yes it is failing. As for people nominally being Muslims and going about their lives, I don't see how that's an issue just as much as I don't see how Natives or people believing in Astrology is an issue.

The only people that are truly following Islam these days are not that successful and do not seem to be welcomed by other Muslims who see the value of a non-extremist society and wish to embrace it.

[The Skeletal Atheist]

Islam will fail for the same reason every other religion will fail eventually: communications technology. The advent of the internet is still quite a recent thing in terms of human history. With the impact it has had on recent revolutions it is clear that the internet and the ability to freely exchange information is a tyrant's worst nightmare. The worst thing that tyrants have to face is that even if they somehow shut the internet down in their countries is that the technology to set up a private and secure intranet is out there and readily available. This being said religion, one of the favorite tools of tyrants, is now facing its hardest challenge: the free and (with the right proxies/software) anonymous exchange of information and ideas.

Will Islam, Christianity, and other religions exist in 200 years? Probably, but they'll be in much different forms than today. Eventually every religion will have to try and be relevant with the times or risk being washed away.

[Hydra009]

Islam has been here since before 700 CE and currently has 1.57 billion members. I don't think that qualifies as "failing".

We could make similar claims about Roman paganism at its height.  Or polytheism in general before monotheism caught on.  Current success does not necessarily secure future success.

[Brian37]

Islam will fail for the same reason every other religion will fail eventually: communications technology. The advent of the internet is still quite a recent thing in terms of human history. With the impact it has had on recent revolutions it is clear that the internet and the ability to freely exchange information is a tyrant's worst nightmare. The worst thing that tyrants have to face is that even if they somehow shut the internet down in their countries is that the technology to set up a private and secure intranet is out there and readily available. This being said religion, one of the favorite tools of tyrants, is now facing its hardest challenge: the free and (with the right proxies/software) anonymous exchange of information and ideas.

Will Islam, Christianity, and other religions exist in 200 years? Probably, but they'll be in much different forms than today. Eventually every religion will have to try and be relevant with the times or risk being washed away.

History will repeat and today's believed "true" religions will morph and change and or completely die out. Unfortunately most likely to be replaced with some other new concocted bullshit with claimed super heros and prophets, just like those prior.

[josephpalazzo]

Every religion will have to evolve with the times or die out. Of course, the literalists, the fundies and the radicals are going to scream out louder and louder.

But overshadowing all this is the relentless destruction to the environment we are impacting, which eventually will make every institutions, including the religious ones, untenable.

[frosty]

I tend to disagree with many posters here that religion will die out as a result of time. That is progressive, futuristic, Atheistic thinking, but often unfortunately does not have a bearing in the harsh real world. Religion gives people hope. Religion re-assures simple humans about their existence in this gargantuan universe. That is just not going to stop. People need religion and non-physical fantasies to feel better about their lives. It may be tough for users on an Atheist forum to accept, but yes, that does seem to be the absolute majority of humans. Most people seem to believe in religion, or some type of spirituality and there is nothing we can do about it.

It's 2013. Not only are people still attending religious houses of worship in large numbers, but people use the Internet itself to promote and validate their beliefs. The user that posted about how the Internet is defeating religion offered an extremely simple and one sided argument. And as for the "revolutions" in the Middle East, well, internal factors were also a large part of what happened, it's not just the Internet that caused the events. And those countries aren't doing so well right now anyway. It is my view that with all these factors considered religion is only going to get more intense in the future. It's not going away, and making a post on an Atheist forum talking about how it will be phased out does not mean that it actually will.

[Sulaco]

I tend to disagree with many posters here that religion will die out as a result of time. That is progressive, futuristic, Atheistic thinking, but often unfortunately does not have a bearing in the harsh real world. Religion gives people hope. Religion re-assures simple humans about their existence in this gargantuan universe. That is just not going to stop. People need religion and non-physical fantasies to feel better about their lives. It may be tough for users on an Atheist forum to accept, but yes, that does seem to be the absolute majority of humans. Most people seem to believe in religion, or some type of spirituality and there is nothing we can do about it.

What if religion was just a part of an evolutionary process?

In that respect I forsee religion dying out, but as with all things evolutionary, it will take a long time.

As less people deconvert, and children are raised in non-religious environments, the numbers associated with religion will eventually dwindle. Sure, there are those who fall into religion who might have been raised in a non-religious family, though the percentages of this are small, and even they can deconvert (as I did).

So I'd say there is hope.. what I'm more afraid of is some religious-fueled war against non-believers that wipes out a massive population.

[stromboli]

Call me a pessimist, but if something like Christianity can not only hang on but thrive against all of the scientific achievement created through the same period, I question how vulnerable religion is. Islam and other religions are highly opportunistic and  aggressive in their nature. The fact that Sharia Law has been instituted in neighborhoods in England alone is reason to worry.

http://frontpagemag.com/2013/dgreenfiel ... don-video/

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/N ... t-Britain/

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/ ... -20-years/

The fact that this isn't receiving much press alone is disturbing. This doesn't constitute failing, short or long term.

[Sulaco]

It's only been 200-300 years since the enlightmentment period where deism and atheism really started to make an impact (in the west), both of which oppose theism. In the grand scheme of things, we're still very young in our development on this front.

In a lot of eastern countries, they haven't made much progress at all (as a whole) .. though there have been small break-throughs, and there are testimonies of Arabs who have left the islamic religion and embraced education and scientific reason and rational thought.

I don't anticipate any great changes over the course of my lifetime.. but you never know!

[frosty]

I tend to disagree with many posters here that religion will die out as a result of time. That is progressive, futuristic, Atheistic thinking, but often unfortunately does not have a bearing in the harsh real world. Religion gives people hope. Religion re-assures simple humans about their existence in this gargantuan universe. That is just not going to stop. People need religion and non-physical fantasies to feel better about their lives. It may be tough for users on an Atheist forum to accept, but yes, that does seem to be the absolute majority of humans. Most people seem to believe in religion, or some type of spirituality and there is nothing we can do about it.

What if religion was just a part of an evolutionary process?

In that respect I forsee religion dying out, but as with all things evolutionary, it will take a long time.

As less people deconvert, and children are raised in non-religious environments, the numbers associated with religion will eventually dwindle. Sure, there are those who fall into religion who might have been raised in a non-religious family, though the percentages of this are small, and even they can deconvert (as I did).

So I'd say there is hope.. what I'm more afraid of is some religious-fueled war against non-believers that wipes out a massive population.

Once again Sulaco - futuristic thinking. You are a progressive, forward thinker and that's good. Considering how much humans have changed since the times of the Abrahamic religions, which is very little yet very much at the same time, if religion is part of an evolutionary process that doesn't bode any better anyways. Evolution is a slow process - sometimes an extremely, extremely slow one. Now in the context of evolution, you foresee religion dying out, but what if it doesn't? Somebody used quite frankly an awful argument by saying the Internet is killing religion. Wrong, the Internet is emboldening and validating religion. And disregarding the Internet, people in their minds simply do not want to give up. They. Just. Don't. I am trying to make my fellow Atheists here understand and accept that. Most people believe in a higher power and organized religion and their numbers expand as time goes by. They increase, they do not dwindle.

Now as for the "non-religious" upbringings, several western constitutions make a case of pointing out that people have freedom of religion and freedom from religion, yet that has not done much to stop people from embracing various faiths, particularly Christianity and secondarily Islam. Yes, more people nowadays are secular than in the past, but the population as a whole still continues to grow - and along with it, the specific demographic of "people that believe in religion" continues to swell along with the population expansion. So in the end it is a flash in the pan.

It goes like this Sulaco: People need hope. People do not give up. People use religion for their own self gain. Henceforth, religion shall survive and thrive exponentially as time goes forth. The whole argument that time and technology hurt religion is completely invalid considering religion co-opts technology - and even if people are proven wrong on an issue, they continue to believe they are right anyway. Speaking of time, they don't care about dates or times as well. It's 2013, so praise Yeezus and Hallelujah. Haven't you heard? God, they say, is eternal and his poorly translated word shall live on forever. And so it was written.

[Sulaco]

Evolution is a slow process - sometimes an extremely, extremely slow one. Now in the context of evolution, you foresee religion dying out, but what if it doesn't?

Somebody used quite frankly an awful argument by saying the Internet is killing religion. Wrong, the Internet is emboldening and validating religion. And disregarding the Internet, people in their minds simply do not want to give up. They. Just. Don't. I am trying to make my fellow Atheists here understand and accept that. Most people believe in a higher power and organized religion and their numbers expand as time goes by. They increase, they do not dwindle.

Overall I hear that religions are loosing members, not gaining them.

It goes like this Sulaco: People need hope. People do not give up. People use religion for their own self gain. Henceforth, religion shall survive and thrive exponentially as time goes forth. The whole argument that time and technology hurt religion is completely invalid considering religion co-opts technology - and even if people are proven wrong on an issue, they continue to believe they are right anyway. Speaking of time, they don't care about dates or times as well. It's 2013, so praise Yeezus and Hallelujah. Haven't you heard? God, they say, is eternal and his poorly translated word shall live on forever. And so it was written.

This is part of the difference between the evolved vs unevolved.. or so I like to think ;)

I don't believe I will live after death. I can accept that without the need for false hopes. I expect that as time passes by, more will come to the same conclusion and develop the means to accept reality in the natural world for what it is.

Or perhaps, as with other species, humans might branch into two sects.. and perhaps until such time as the two varients of future homosapiens might not be able to reproduce with each other. lol.

[frosty]

Overall I hear that religions are loosing members, not gaining them.

Well, hearing from word of mouth is not that reliable. I was looking for statistics to prove what I said about the population swelling, but I'm looking for a valid one and some of them have different numbers.

So non-religious reproduces children who remain non-religious, and religious reproduces children who become religious? I don't think it works like that.. and I know more non-religious people of my generation who have religious parents, then religious people with religious parents.

You are twisting up words here Sulaco. It is not as black and white as that. Just because someone is young that does not mean they are going to be non-religious. That is a grave misconception and a logical fallacy.

I don't believe I will live after death. I can accept that without the need for false hopes.

Yes, you can accept that. Most people seem to not be able to. You might be different but they are not you and you are not them.

I expect that as time passes by, more will come to the same conclusion and develop the means to accept reality in the natural world for what it is.

Yes, that's the key word. You expect based on your own preconceived mentality. You are expecting humans to do on a massive special planetary scale what they have never done in existence ever. My point with all my postings are that you and other Atheists may think differently from religionists but that does not mean you control reality, that does not mean you can change what others think and that does not mean that just because you think in a futuristic context that others are going to pack their bags and follow suit. It doesn't work like that, and that's what you really need to understand. But then if I had a quarter for every time someone on the Internet thought what they believed was right, and was the future... then I'd probably have around 100 dollars. Something like that. Compartmentalization on the Internet leads to people having a skewed idea of how prominent their views really are.

Or perhaps, as with other species, humans might branch into two sects.. and perhaps until such time as the two varients of future homosapiens might not be able to reproduce with each other. lol.

That would probably take thousands if not millions of years to happen. I'm no expert on that subject but humans are known, and only known for all of recorded time to breed within our own species. You seem to want so bad to believe that religion is going to go away that you are starting to spew nonsense just so you can believe what you type.

[Sulaco]

Well, hearing from word of mouth is not that reliable. I was looking for statistics to prove what I said about the population swelling, but I'm looking for a valid one and some of them have different numbers.

Likewise. The information I had came from the church , from when I was affiliated with back in the dark times lol

So non-religious reproduces children who remain non-religious, and religious reproduces children who become religious? I don't think it works like that.. and I know more non-religious people of my generation who have religious parents, then religious people with religious parents.

You are twisting up words here Sulaco. It is not as black and white as that. Just because someone is young that does not mean they are going to be non-religious. That is a grave misconception and a logical fallacy.

Yes I misinterpreted your point, hence why I removed it from my reponse afterward ;)

Yes, you can accept that. Most people seem to not be able to. You might be different but they are not you and you are not them.

Though logic and reason leads to that conjuncture. My point is that if beliefs in the supernatural is a subpart of evolution, then over time I'd expect humans to evolve to become more rational and logical in their reason.

Granted that 3000 years ago there probably wasn't anyone who rejected the supernatural over acceptance of death, that would suggest some progress made. Wouldn't you agree?  :)

Yes, that's the key word. You expect based on your own preconceived mentality. You are expecting humans to do on a massive special planetary scale what they have never done in existence ever.

My expectations come from observation of atheism and secularism taking presidence in the world today that didn't exist several thousand years ago.

My point with all my postings are that you and other Atheists may think differently from religionists but that does not mean you control reality, that does not mean you can change what others think and that does not mean that just because you think in a futuristic context that others are going to pack their bags and follow suit. It doesn't work like that, and that's what you really need to understand.

What gave you the impression that it was my intent to change the minds of others?

I don't recall making any such statements that would suggest a form of "evangelism" to advocate a change, or conversion of others to my way of thinking lol

That would probably take thousands if not millions of years to happen. I'm no expert on that subject but humans are known, and only known for all of recorded time to breed within our own species. You seem to want so bad to believe that religion is going to go away that you are starting to spew nonsense just so you can believe what you type.

I'm not infering or believing anything .. just providing some light-hearted banter as to future possibilities, and my own observations. sheesh.

[frosty]

This is where I think I should stop now. I've made all the points I possibly can, and if you want to keep replying with the idea that religion is on the back-foot then that's your problem not mine. One more thing though:

This:

Granted that 3000 years ago there probably wasn't anyone who rejected the supernatural over acceptance of death, that would suggest some progress made. Wouldn't you agree?  :)

Is basically the central point of your argument. That just because some people like yourself, overall a small number, are able to shed superstition that means that objectively as a whole religion is doomed to fail and soon. You are free to believe that if you wish but in reality it just doesn't add up. Like I said to you and basically all my other fellow Atheists, you can compartmentalize yourself all you want, you can circle jerk with others and isolate yourself and pretend what you oppose is going away but it isn't. In fact, in most trends it is growing. Deal with it, you can deal with it better when you actually accept what is going on.