Well hello.

[Hubert Farnham]

Ever picked fresh veg?  Green leaf volatiles are plant screams.

Welcome to the forum :D

Screams, like screams from pain?
GLV is a signal, that means something, but that doesn't mean pain/suffering, because a plant, obviously, cannot feel.

[Hubert Farnham]

I don't remember animals destroying any ecosystems in a history of Earth.
All worked pretty fine, before human came.

Oxygen Catastrophe

Bugger.

It's called a catastrophe, because that was a global change of the course of the biosphere, but it's not that cianobacteria have really destroyed their habitat.
Changing course of life is not the same as destroying it (like we do)

[Hubert Farnham]

I don't remember animals destroying any ecosystems in a history of Earth.
All worked pretty fine, before human came.

99% of all species that ever existed have gone extinct. All forms of life are great at destroying one another.
You just don't notice it because new ecosystems take the place of the old ones.

So, you actually nullified your own point about uncontrolled breeding of animals.
We let them breed, stop eating them, and maximum damage that they'll do - replace one form of life with another.
Guess I'm OK with that :)

[stromboli]

Last time I checked, humans are omnivores. Got an omnivore set of teeth and an omnivore digestive tract. Homo Sapiens has survived a few millennia eating meat, veggies, either or both. I'm fairly sure that if meat were a bad idea it would taste bad to us and we wouldn't eat it.

I have fed my family hunting for deer. Out here, we call that "harvesting" because it keeps deer herds to manageable sizes so they don't over populate and die of starvation. We have healthy and robust deer herds. We have meat on the table.

Vegetarian is a choice. And, oh yeah, sometimes they scream when they die.

[Hubert Farnham]

Last time I checked, humans are omnivores. Got an omnivore set of teeth and an omnivore digestive tract. Homo Sapiens has survived a few millennia eating meat, veggies, either or both. I'm fairly sure that if meat were a bad idea it would taste bad to us and we wouldn't eat it.

I have fed my family hunting for deer. Out here, we call that "harvesting" because it keeps deer herds to manageable sizes so they don't over populate and die of starvation. We have healthy and robust deer herds. We have meat on the table.

Vegetarian is a choice. And, oh yeah, sometimes they scream when they die.

Homo Sapiens has also survived a few millenia killing millions for the sake of their imaginary friends.
And they were perfectly fine with that.
There are a lot of very healthy Christians, Muslims, and all the others who still think that evolution is a hoax.

Atheism is a choice. A wise choice, a choise that uses logic instead of beliefs.
Just like being vegetarian.

And yeah, "witches" also screamed sometimes when inquisition was burning them.
Sorry, they always screamed, I guess.

[Plu]

So, you actually nullified your own point about uncontrolled breeding of animals.
We let them breed, stop eating them, and maximum damage that they'll do - replace one form of life with another.
Guess I'm OK with that :)

Don't forget we're a form of life that might get replaced as well. The first thing rampant breeding of animals will cause is a huge drop in food production, because they'll eat all the farm crop.

(Also I'm not sure if "let them breed uncontrollably" is a very humane position to have. Certainly less humane then "use controlled hunting to prevent all the horrors of a plague-level population". Being able to breed until your species destroys itself and its entire ecosystem and then having to suffer through the aftermath of it is far more horrible and needlessly painful than just removing the excess animals. Both to the specific animal that ends up dead and the ecosystem it lives in.)

Last time I checked, humans are omnivores. Got an omnivore set of teeth and an omnivore digestive tract. Homo Sapiens has survived a few millennia eating meat, veggies, either or both. I'm fairly sure that if meat were a bad idea it would taste bad to us and we wouldn't eat it.

This, too. For someone who seems to care about natural things, you're sticking with an incredibly unnatural diet, one that would kill you if you were to be stuck in an actual natural enviroment. The only reason you have an enviroment where you can be a vegetarian, is because your ancestors decided to do the smart thing and eat animals instead of sticking with plants.

[Hubert Farnham]

Don't forget we're a form of life that might get replaced as well. The first thing rampant breeding of animals will cause is a huge drop in food production, because they'll eat all the farm crop.

(Also I'm not sure if "let them breed uncontrollably" is a very humane position to have. Certainly less humane then "use controlled hunting to prevent all the horrors of a plague-level population". Being able to breed until your species destroys itself and its entire ecosystem and then having to suffer through the aftermath of it is far more horrible and needlessly painful than just removing the excess animals. Both to the specific animal that ends up dead and the ecosystem it lives in.)

So you suggest that same must be done to humans?
Let's "remove" all the "excess" humans. They surely will suffer less than in couple hundreds of years, when humankind will become extinct because we haven't taken care of the population.
Is that what you suggest? Because WE are the most overgrown species.
Exterminate! Exterminate!

This, too. For someone who seems to care about natural things, you're sticking with an incredibly unnatural diet, one that would kill you if you were to be stuck in an actual natural enviroment. The only reason you have an enviroment where you can be a vegetarian, is because your ancestors decided to do the smart thing and eat animals instead of sticking with plants.

I can be a vegetarian, because I'm a product of a civilization, that doesn't have to eat animals.
I should be a product of progress, I don't have to do what my ancestors did. They were Pagan, too - should I?

About unhealhty - that's simply wrong, but I guess you know that.
I myself feel much much better physically (let alone mentally) after I stopped eating meat.
My blood tests are perfectly fine, AND I have enough iron :)

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Welcome aboard, Hubert.

I don't think anyone will criticize you for being a vegetarian, though pushing rhetoric like "murdering" animals is going to wear thin after awhile should you continue along that line. Regardless of how you see it, humans are omnivores, not herbivores; our system isn't just built to handle meat, it requires meat for an optimal diet. You need significantly more plant material to get the same benefit you get from meat, especially protein, because no plant material is as dense in protein as meat. You are welcome to your beliefs, certainly, but understand that most of us don't want to spend that much time and effort working against our own digestive system.

Granted, most folks eat more meat than is healthy, but that's a whole other issue.

[Jason78]

Last time I checked, humans are omnivores. Got an omnivore set of teeth and an omnivore digestive tract. Homo Sapiens has survived a few millennia eating meat, veggies, either or both.

It's perfectly possible to eat and live a totally vegan lifestyle with supplements to replace the nutrients lost by not eating meat.  But so many products that aren't for eating are still made with animals or animal byproducts.

I'm fairly sure that if meat were a bad idea it would taste bad to us and we wouldn't eat it.

You could make the same argument about sugar.  Type 2 Diabetes anyone?

[stromboli]

Right. back to harvesting animals. Ever see a deer starve to death? Become so numerous they create a hazard on the highways as roadkill? Harvesting an animal rather than allowing it to starve to death is humane, whether you think it or not. And a situation where a state generates income by allowing harvesting and the use of the meat as food rather than letting it rot in the field makes sense, believe it or not.

I  am an atheist also. Haven't killed any Christians or burned any witches. If you want to equate the eating of meat with the above activities, be my guest. We were eating meat before, during and after the witch burnings and religious pogroms. Pacifistic societies eat meat. The two are not related.

The problem with vegetarians/vegans is that they equate their life choice as more correct or moral or sane, but the fact is morality and sanity don't reside solely in a bowl of tofu. some of the smartest and sanest people I know love a good steak. Your vegetarian lifestyle is a personal choice. I choose otherwise, and am perfectly happy with it. Oh and btw, 7th Day Adventists are Vegetarians. Some of the nuttiest fuckers you'll ever meet.

[Plu]

So you suggest that same must be done to humans?

I'm totally in favor of reducing the human population, but I'm practical enough to realise it's easier to do through reduced number of births over actually killing people. Because that tends to go over badly no matter how you slice it.

You could make the same argument about sugar. Type 2 Diabetes anyone?

Sugar is actually really good for you.

In the amounts that it'd be available in if you'd live in a natural enviroment, like the kind where our natural response to sugars evolved in. The problem lies in the current availability of sugars; we never evolved the ability to tell ourselves when we've had enough because it has never been neccesary until a few centuries ago. Type 2 Diabetes is probably that ability evolving in; I would suspect that in a few thousand years people won't have as much of a sweet-tooth as they do now. Unless of course we struggle against it like we do, in which case we'll be stuck with it for a long time to come :)

[Hubert Farnham]

Welcome aboard, Hubert.

I don't think anyone will criticize you for being a vegetarian, though pushing rhetoric like "murdering" animals is going to wear thin after awhile should you continue along that line. Regardless of how you see it, humans are omnivores, not herbivores; our system isn't just built to handle meat, it requires meat for an optimal diet. You need significantly more plant material to get the same benefit you get from meat, especially protein, because no plant material is as dense in protein as meat. You are welcome to your beliefs, certainly, but understand that most of us don't want to spend that much time and effort working against our own digestive system.

Granted, most folks eat more meat than is healthy, but that's a whole other issue.

Well, what's rhetoric in "murdering"? It is what it is. How else would you call it?
When you choose to see it like it is - and if you're a person of a clear mind and common sense then there is no other way to see this - you will understand, that the need for additional plant material doesn't justify a murder of anyone.

[Hubert Farnham]

Right. back to harvesting animals. Ever see a deer starve to death? Become so numerous they create a hazard on the highways as roadkill? Harvesting an animal rather than allowing it to starve to death is humane, whether you think it or not. And a situation where a state generates income by allowing harvesting and the use of the meat as food rather than letting it rot in the field makes sense, believe it or not.

As I said, imply the same logic on humans.
People starve to death in Africa - so let's kill your neighbors in order to reduce the population.
Very humane.

I  am an atheist also. Haven't killed any Christians or burned any witches. If you want to equate the eating of meat with the above activities, be my guest. We were eating meat before, during and after the witch burnings and religious pogroms. Pacifistic societies eat meat. The two are not related.

Of course they're not related.
However, eating meat and believing in gods are examples of beliefs that aren't logical, cause death and suffer, and clearly belong to the dark past of the civilization.

The problem with vegetarians/vegans is that they equate their life choice as more correct or moral or sane, but the fact is morality and sanity don't reside solely in a bowl of tofu. some of the smartest and sanest people I know love a good steak. Your vegetarian lifestyle is a personal choice. I choose otherwise, and am perfectly happy with it. Oh and btw, 7th Day Adventists are Vegetarians. Some of the nuttiest fuckers you'll ever meet.

So? What exactly do these examples prove?
I also met nice and intelligent religious people, and I also met - believe it or not - some douchebags that eat meat.
No one said that atheism or vegetarianism will automatically make you a better person.

[Hubert Farnham]

So you suggest that same must be done to humans?

I'm totally in favor of reducing the human population, but I'm practical enough to realise it's easier to do through reduced number of births over actually killing people. Because that tends to go over badly no matter how you slice it.

But why not actually killing? And eating them?
Wouldn't it be more practical? And faster solution?

[stromboli]

Welcome aboard, Hubert.

I don't think anyone will criticize you for being a vegetarian, though pushing rhetoric like "murdering" animals is going to wear thin after awhile should you continue along that line. Regardless of how you see it, humans are omnivores, not herbivores; our system isn't just built to handle meat, it requires meat for an optimal diet. You need significantly more plant material to get the same benefit you get from meat, especially protein, because no plant material is as dense in protein as meat. You are welcome to your beliefs, certainly, but understand that most of us don't want to spend that much time and effort working against our own digestive system.

Granted, most folks eat more meat than is healthy, but that's a whole other issue.

Well, what's rhetoric in "murdering"? It is what it is. How else would you call it?
When you choose to see it like it is - and if you're a person of a clear mind and common sense then there is no other way to see this - you will understand, that the need for additional plant material doesn't justify a murder of anyone.

Yeah well, if you want to go all huggy bear on sheep, cows and pigs that provide us with meat, milk, hides and whatnot, fine. Your viewpoint is your viewpoint. Bob Barker will certainly approve. We've been "murdering" these animals for millennia, and I don't think any sandal wearing Grecian shepherd ever wept openly when one of his flock became dinner.

I grew up in farm country and herded sheep as a teenager. I also delivered turkeys to a processing plant to be harvested. And shot deer. Dinner on the table. there are any number and manner of criticisms to be leveled at modern farming practices, Kentucky Fried Chicken and so on, but the fact is that meat eaters outnumber vegetarians by a large margin. And I am an atheist. And I've never killed anybody.