Shots Fired Outside U.S. Capitol

[LikelyToBreak]

AllPurposeAtheist wrote:

Ok, look at facts.
A. She tried to crash the gates at the WH.
B. Hit a cop, 2 actually
C. Speed off at high speed toward capitol hill
D. Put many, many lives in danger driving extremely dangerously through DC
E. Nobody (apparently) knew her motives, terror, assassination, etc.
F. A speeding car IS a dangerous weapon. Ever tried to stop one barehanded? I bet you lost.

A. So it has been reported.  Could she just have lost control of her car, then being frightened, sped off?
B. She was in the wrong, but if she feared for her life, understandable.
C. Back to being scared.  The Capital is on the same street as the Whitehouse.
D. She sure did.  Is it a capital offense now to speed on a city street?
E. This I believe to be true.
F. Sure is.  No, can't say I ever tried to stop a car barehanded.  Unless you count the time I tried, unsuccessfully to stop my truck from rolling out of my driveway into the street.  Damn brat of mine took it out of park when I wasn't looking.

I don't know much about this incidence, just some first had video and commentary from the talking heads who also didn't know what was going on.  But, I do know most cops carry tasers or something like them.  If she was armed and fired at the police, or even just pointed a gun at them, yeah she begging to get shot.  If she was some young mother, one report I heard said there was a child in the car, frightened by people waving guns at her, maybe the cops over-reacted.  We have been getting a lot of that recently.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

LtB..It's the capital of the US. Police there can be real pricks. Give em ANY reason to suspect you're driving a car with explosives you're gonna get shot at if you even think of crashing the wh gates.
CNN just reported police say she'd been distraught and thought Obama had her place in Conneticutt (sp) on lockdown and had her house and phones bugged..

[LikelyToBreak]

It sounds like another crazy person got put down by overzealous cops to me.  (That sounds harsher then I intended for it to.)  Did they say anything about a firearm?  Or just that they thought she might have explosives?  

Doesn't it bother you at all that the another mentally ill person was "put down," by the authorities?  This war on terror, seems to have just claimed another victim.  A climate where shoot first and ask questions later doesn't seem like a good thing to me.

That being said, it sounds like the cops are being scared by all of the terror talk too.  Can't we just relax and quit seeing a terrorist behind every bush?  Maybe, if the facts of the case become well known, and I am right in believing she was mentally ill, next time the police will think twice about killing someone.  We can always hope I guess.   :(

[AllPurposeAtheist]

I'm betting you forgot about the mentally ill dude who shot up the navy yard last week, huh?

[LikelyToBreak]

Just because you are authorized to do something, doesn't mean you should do it.

I'm not saying we should throw the officers who shot her in jail.  I am saying we, and the authorities, should try to learn from this incident.  Maybe some officers will, not that we will ever know, but if some think before acting, lives could be saved.  Doctors have post mortem reviews to try to learn how they can do their jobs better.  This case sounds like it would be a good case for officers to have a post mortem review on.  Maybe, they will.  But, not if all that happens is a cover-up to make sure those involved don't suffer embarrassment.

[Brian37]

Just because you are authorized to do something, doesn't mean you should do it.

Right, and in this story from the little info I know right now I cannot say either way if the shooting death of the suspect was justified.

I can only base it on what has been provided limited by the media.

Without a gun, which ended up to be the case, they still shot her. My question would be, was that reaction based on her initial assault with the vehicle? If she had been killed from where the video started, I would go with that.

But if all she did after the chase was hit something, and did not move after that and stayed in the car, then it becomes questionable.

IF IF IF  I am placing bets as to why she was fatally shot even without being armed, my guess is even after the chase, and the final crash, she attempted to move the car towards a police officer, and or she got out of the car and pointed an object at police as "suicide by cop"

BUT, that does not negate that the over all meme of police training is to assume guilt first and presume the worst first.

[Colanth]

But, I do know most cops carry tasers or something like them.

Ever try to tase the driver of a car from outside the car.  There may be a few people who could do it, but I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't afford to lose.

That being said, it sounds like the cops are being scared by all of the terror talk too.

Of course they are - they're not bullet- or car-proof.

Can't we just relax and quit seeing a terrorist behind every bush?

Would you want to be the cop who "relaxed" and got killed by the terrorist he didn't want to kill by mistake?

Doctors have post mortem reviews to try to learn how they can do their jobs better.

Doctors don't have half a second to realize that there's a situation and react to it.

I'm not condoning killing her, but I can understand why they fired on her.

It's a bad time to be mentally ill enough to present what appears to be an immediate threat to cops.  This isn't going to be the last EDP who gets shot in a situation that, when studied for hours, looks as if it could have been handled better.

[LikelyToBreak]

The police and all others in government are supposed to work for us.  When they don't, it is called a police state.  Does anyone remember about McCarthyism?  Where there was a Commie behind every bush.  This is when the police state we live in today got started.  Just because its' a terrorist behind every bush, instead of a Commie, doesn't make it any less real.

I wasn't there, so I don't know what really happened or what was going through the minds of the police officers who shot the woman, but as long as I can, I have a duty to ask for reasonable explanations from  those who are supposed to work for me.  If the police work for me, then they need to justify killing a mother with something other than, "Well this is the capital, we are authorized to shoot suspects."

Those who are willingly knuckling under to the jack booted thugs, because the terrorists are out to get us, really ought to reconsider your position on this.  

Do those who don't think the US is a police state, check this out here: //http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate

Just because you are not in jail today, doesn't mean you won't be tomorrow.  Or maybe you'll look like a terrorist, then you won't get the chance of a trial because street justice was already dealt out.

[billhilly]

Interesting article on the subject.

An unarmed 34-year-old woman suffering from postpartum depression is surrounded by the authorities while sitting in her car, and gunned down in cold blood. She is blocked in. She cannot move. And yet she is killed by heavily armed security officers. Her one-year old child witnesses this from the back seat. Why is this not a national tragedy?

Miriam Carey was a young African-American woman who wanted to better herself. She went to college and graduated with a BA degree in health and nutrition science. She became a dental hygienist. One of her neighbors noted that it was obvious she was educated. She gave birth to her daughter a year ago and began to suffer from postpartum depression. She displayed some irrational behavior and was put on medication.

Thus far it's not an uncommon story. About 50% of women who give birth suffer from postpartum depression. A friend of mine was on medication for more than 8 years after her daughter was born. This might conceivably happen to my daughter. Or to one of Obama's daughters, come to think of it.

Then, on October 3, Miriam crashed her car into a security barrier near the White House. She was surrounded by security men shouting at her and pointing high-power guns. Was it so irrational to try to escape, to protect her daughter from men pointing pistols at her? A chase ensued, and she then crashed her car into a median somewhere in the vicinity of the Congress. She was blocked by security forces from several agencies. She could not move. She was unarmed, and alone save for her daughter. In her car, unprotected. And then she was killed.

After the Boston Marathon killings, Boston police spent over 2 hours in a stand-off gun fight with the surviving bomber, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. They threw flash-bang grenades to disorient him. They brought in a negotiator to talk him into giving himself up. Eventually he did, and he walked out alive. But Miriam was not given that chance. She was trapped in her car, just sitting there. And they killed her. They emptied multiple rounds of ammunition before dragging her body from the car, her one-year old child witnessing all this from the back seat.

Are we so dead to any instinct of what is owed a mother that we are not shocked by this? We have read of police who kill without asking questions, and are inured to it. But a mother? I would have thought that ordinary Americans would be revolted by this. And then the murdering police get a standing ovation from the men and women of the Senate. Yes, kill Miriam. Take no chances. Our lives are precious. Her life and the life of people like her are not.

And immediately the sycophantic hangers-on come out to justify the actions of the police and to slander the poor victim. The newspapers print with absolute certainty that Miriam was intent on breaking into the White House and then Congress. Where's the evidence that would stand up in a court of law? A lecturer on security from one of our institutions of higher learning says that this situation was special: the young woman threatened the vital nerve center of our country, the whole world even. Yes, the nerve center that has been shut down for the past few days. And a helpful psychologist, who never met Miriam, pronounces that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis rather than depression and that such psychosis couldn't possibly last for a year. I'd welcome the opportunity to cross-examine him on the witness stand.

The thing is, the senators are different from you and me. They are part of the ruling class that has insinuated itself in the folds of a republic where everyone is said to be created equal. In most states, an ordinary citizen is not permitted to stand his ground when threatened by thugs. He may not use deadly force to protect himself from intruders in his own home unless he has no possibility of escape. Fine for them, but we need special rules for the ruling class. Their lives are more valuable, and they must be protected at any and all costs. Even from an unarmed young woman, alone in her car with her young child.

What has happened to us, that Miriam Carey's death is not a tragedy? How does a democracy justify valuing some lives over others?