Hobby Lobby May Close 400 Stores Because Obamacare ?!?!?!?

[the_antithesis]

This is excuse making on their part.

[josephpalazzo]

Good riddance.

[Atheon]

That company is run by fundie right-wing nutcases, and I would never grace them with my presence unless it were to urinate on their doorstep. Just like Chick-Fil-A.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Smartzi..I know you'd have to fix the wagon and your old horse is probably got a broken leg, but you could make a pilgrimage to Columbus where Satan himself dwells and stock up on yarn here. :shock: :-k

[Aroura33]

This is all EMPTY THREATS!  

Do you really think this billion dollar company is going to just close up and shut down because of this?  You think these rich people are going to give up their cash cow because of this?  Bullshit.  They are full of....bullshit.

Like all fundies, they will claim one thing, but when push comes to shove, they will do what makes them money, not what they profess to "believe".  

There is a HUGE sign in my local mall that a NEW Hobby Lobby is coming soon!  There is a ton of remodeling going on RIGHT THIS MINUTE in the soon to be store.  They would not be doing this, spending money on a new store, if they really thought they would soon have to shut down existing ones.  

Do not let these asswipes fool you.  "Obamacare" is NOT going to cause companies to shut down, health insurance rates to skyrocket, or millions of people to suddenly become unemployed.  This is just typical right wing scare tactics.  They do this all the time, and it always turns out to be hot air.

I bet you an entire months paycheck that they are just lying to scare people into not signing up for ACT, because if not enough people sign up, it WILL fail and then they will get what they want.  Poor, uneducated, uninsured, desperate people willing to work 2 jobs just to pay the rent and buy food.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Aroura, are you suggesting that the sky is not in fact falling? I dunno.. I went outside today and the first sign of end times happened.. It was slightly breezy and unseasonably warm I might add! See what carnage people being able to see doctors creates?

[josephpalazzo]

This is all EMPTY THREATS!  

Do you really think this billion dollar company is going to just close up and shut down because of this?  You think these rich people are going to give up their cash cow because of this?  Bullshit.  They are full of....bullshit.

Like all fundies, they will claim one thing, but when push comes to shove, they will do what makes them money, not what they profess to "believe".  

There is a HUGE sign in my local mall that a NEW Hobby Lobby is coming soon!  There is a ton of remodeling going on RIGHT THIS MINUTE in the soon to be store.  They would not be doing this, spending money on a new store, if they really thought they would soon have to shut down existing ones.  

Do not let these asswipes fool you.  "Obamacare" is NOT going to cause companies to shut down, health insurance rates to skyrocket, or millions of people to suddenly become unemployed.  This is just typical right wing scare tactics.  They do this all the time, and it always turns out to be hot air.

I bet you an entire months paycheck that they are just lying to scare people into not signing up for ACT, because if not enough people sign up, it WILL fail and then they will get what they want.  Poor, uneducated, uninsured, desperate people willing to work 2 jobs just to pay the rent and buy food.

Typical of many of those folks. Anyone remembers when Obama just got elected, and they all ran to buy guns, emptying every pop&mom shops of their gun stock? Mass hysteria is their game.

[mykcob4]

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldreport.com/hobby-lobby-may-close-all-500-stores-in-41-states/59353

When my family and I started our company 40 years ago, we were working out of a garage on a $600 bank loan, assembling miniature picture frames. Our first retail store wasn't much bigger than most people's living rooms, but we had faith that we would succeed if we lived and worked according to God's word.

From there, Hobby Lobby has become one of the  nation's largest arts and crafts retailers, with more than 500 locations in 41 states. Our children grew up into fine business leaders, and today we run Hobby Lobby together, as a family.  

We're Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I've always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God's laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that's what we've tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week's biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest.

We believe that it is by God's grace that Hobby Lobby has endured, and he has blessed us and our employees. We've not only added jobs in a weak economy, we've raised wages for the past four years in a row. Our full-time employees start at  80% above minimum wage.

But now, our government threatens to change all of that.

A new government healthcare mandate says that our family business MUST provide what I believe are abortion-causing drugs as part of our health insurance. Being Christians, we don't pay for drugs that might cause abortions, which means that we don't cover emergency contraception, the morning-after pill or the week-after pill. We believe doing so might end a life after the moment of conception, something that is contrary to our most important beliefs.

http://voicesunborn.blogspot.com/2013/0 ... es-in.html

It goes against the Biblical principles on which we have run this company since day one.

If we refuse to comply, we could face $1.3 million PER DAY in government fines.

Our government threatens to fine job creators in a bad economy.

Our government threatens to fine a company that's raised wages four years running.

Our government threatens to fine a family for running its business according to its beliefs.  It's not right. I know people will say we ought to follow the  rules; that it's the same for everybody. But that's not true.

   The government has exempted thousands of companies from this mandate, for reasons of convenience or cost.  But it won't exempt them for reasons of religious belief.

So, Hobby Lobby and my family are forced to make a choice. With great reluctance, we filed a lawsuit today, represented by the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, asking a federal court to stop this mandate before it hurts our business. We don't like to go running into court, but we no longer have a choice. We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.

My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is  going to make that much more difficult.

The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law.  I say that's a choice no American and no American business should have to make.

The government cannot force you to follow laws that go against your fundamental religious belief. They have exempted thousands of companies but will not except Christian organizations including the Catholic church.

Since you will not see this in the liberal media, please pass this on to all your contacts.

Sincerely,

David Green

CEO and Founder of Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc.

Let the children weep......

So, let me get this straight. They don't want to POTENTIALLY fund the morning after pill, birth control or anything that someone might use of their own free will because it contradicts their own values?  Um, ok.

Fuck Hobby Lobby. It can die off for all I care, and it can take Chick Fillet with it!

[Colanth]

I see a huge contradiction here - which is typical of theists, demanding one "right" while ignoring a much worse wrong:

We're Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I've always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God's laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that's what we've tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week's biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest.

We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.

My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is  going to make that much more difficult.

So the choice is to fund something that MAY result in a pregnancy being terminated (may - if all of their employees feel as they do, none of their female employees would ever think of terminating a pregnancy) or terminating ALL their employees.  Which might cause MANY children to starve, cause quite a few of their pregnant employees to choose abortion rather than bring a mouth into the world that they can't afford to feed, cause the children of many of their ex-employees to starve, go without medical care, etc.

Talk about being short-sighted.

The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law.  I say that's a choice no American and no American business should have to make.

The government cannot force you to follow laws that go against your fundamental religious belief.

Sure they can.  They just can't make laws the intent of which is religious.  If they can't pass laws that make you violate your religious belief, many current laws would be illegal, because someone, somewhere has to do something that some obscure rule of some obscure religion says he shouldn't do.

Women are allowed to obtain driver's licenses.  Taxes pay for the departments that issue them.  Militant Islam says that women can't be allowed to drive.  But militant Muslims are being forced to pay taxes to support motor vehicle bureaus that issue licenses to women.

So will this "Christian" go along with repealing all laws that violate the beliefs of militant Muslims?  Somehow I don't think so.  So why should people who don't object to abortions have to go along with repealing laws that violate the beliefs of fundamentalist Christians?  (MANY Christians have no problem with abortion.)

Is tunnel vision also a requirement of your Christian cult, David Green?

[billhilly]

Ha!  Good point.  We should all go on strike until the government stops using our tax dollars to prosecute people for eating babies.

[stromboli]

This is just posturing, the same thing Chik-Fil-A did and the same thing Papa John did. Them treating the employees all speshul is Christian I suppose, but making the assumption that somebody is going to use the funding just for abortion or contraception is a big leap.  The same logic is used to defund Planned Parenthood. Like 1-3% of funds goes to actual abortions, and the rest to pre- and post- natal care, which is vital to women of lower income. More moronic crap from the righteous.

The fact is you kill more babies by defunding Planned Parenthood than you would by far, funding it.

[Colanth]

Not a single penny of government funding to PP goes to abortions, and I doubt that a penny of ACA funding will either.  But it sounds good if you aren't capable of actual thought - like so many people.

[entropy]

I see a huge contradiction here - which is typical of theists, demanding one "right" while ignoring a much worse wrong:

We're Christians, and we run our business on Christian principles. I've always said that the first two goals of our business are (1) to run our business in harmony with God's laws, and (2) to focus on people more than money. And that's what we've tried to do. We close early so our employees can see their families at night. We keep our stores closed on Sundays, one of the week's biggest shopping days, so that our workers and their families can enjoy a day of rest.

We believe people are more important than the bottom line and that honoring God is more important than turning a profit.

My family has lived the American dream. We want to continue growing our company and providing great jobs for thousands of employees, but the government is  going to make that much more difficult.

So the choice is to fund something that MAY result in a pregnancy being terminated (may - if all of their employees feel as they do, none of their female employees would ever think of terminating a pregnancy) or terminating ALL their employees.  Which might cause MANY children to starve, cause quite a few of their pregnant employees to choose abortion rather than bring a mouth into the world that they can't afford to feed, cause the children of many of their ex-employees to starve, go without medical care, etc.

Talk about being short-sighted.

The government is forcing us to choose between following our faith and following the law.  I say that's a choice no American and no American business should have to make.

The government cannot force you to follow laws that go against your fundamental religious belief.

Sure they can.  They just can't make laws the intent of which is religious.  If they can't pass laws that make you violate your religious belief, many current laws would be illegal, because someone, somewhere has to do something that some obscure rule of some obscure religion says he shouldn't do.

Women are allowed to obtain driver's licenses.  Taxes pay for the departments that issue them.  Militant Islam says that women can't be allowed to drive.  But militant Muslims are being forced to pay taxes to support motor vehicle bureaus that issue licenses to women.

So will this "Christian" go along with repealing all laws that violate the beliefs of militant Muslims?  Somehow I don't think so.  So why should people who don't object to abortions have to go along with repealing laws that violate the beliefs of fundamentalist Christians?  (MANY Christians have no problem with abortion.)

Is tunnel vision also a requirement of your Christian cult, David Green?

You may find this interesting:

//http://blogs.findlaw.com/sixth_circuit/2013/09/6th-cir-holds-that-employer-must-provide-contraception.html

In case you've missed the other recent circuit court decisions, in identical cases, the Tenth Circuit sided with Hobby Lobby's religious freedom claims, while the Third Circuit sided with the government. Circuit splits, plus a matter of national importance, that is the subject of nationwide litigation, all should push SCOTUS to grant certiorari in the ensuing appeals, though, of course, their jurisdiction is wholly discretionary.

Shareholders' Individual Religious Rights Irrelevant

The Kennedy family, the owners of the company, brought suit under the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, 42 U.S.C. §§ 2000bb, the same statute considered by the Sixth and Third Circuits. Their argument, to put it simply, is that requiring their closely-held, self-insured company to purchase contraception (including alleged abortion-causing drugs) would violate their religious beliefs, and if they refuse, they'll face $19 million dollars in fines.

Alas, their beliefs are not those of the corporation. "Incorporation's basic purpose is to create a distinct legal entity, with legal rights, obligations, powers, and privileges different from those of the natural individuals who created it, who own it, or whom it employs." The Kennedys' actions with respect to the company are as corporate officers with fiduciary duties to the company. The only rights at issue in this case are the rights of the company itself. [This paragraph bolded by me, entropy]

After dismissing the Kennedys' individual claims on standing, the court then addressed the rights of the corporation under the RFRA.

Corporation Cannot Engage in Religious "Exercise"

There, our friends, is the circuit split. The RFRA affords a cause of action to any "person whose religious exercise has been burdened."

The Tenth Circuit held that "as a matter of statutory interpretation . . . Congress did not exclude for-profit corporations from RFRA's protections. This is the classic corporations are people, in the legal sense, argument. Conversely, the Third Circuit held that, "Since [a for-profit, secular corporation] cannot exercise religion, it cannot assert a RFRA claim." [Underline and italics by me]

As for the Sixth, they sided with the Third Circuit, holding that "Autocam is not a 'person' capable of 'religious exercise' as intended by RFRA. The RFRA was passed in response to Yoder and Sherbert, two cases involving restrictions on individuals' religious rights. The court also notes that there is no pre-Obamacare case law demonstrating that a corporation has religious rights. [Again, this part bolded by me]

One final note: the court notes that the Dictionary Act, which provides default definitions for the entire U.S. Code, defines "person" to include corporations, unless the context or text of the statute clearly indicates otherwise. The RFRA doesn't define "person," so the court relies on context and legislative history to support its interpretation. We all know how much certain Justices hate the use of legislative history.

It sounds like this is going to be brought before the whole Supreme Court. If so, I hope they take into account the kinds of scenarios like you, Coranth, illustrate above with respect to some Muslim business owners and what would happen if their adherence to Sharia law applied just as much as the Hobby Lobby owners' adherence to their interpretation of Christianity. The court really opened up a huge can of worms with their Citizen's United decision (corporations are people who have a person's right to free speech - so if a corporation is a person with a person's right to free speech, the logic goes, why shouldn't corporations be considered people with freedom of religion rights as well).

[Colanth]

It's not only the difference between the religious rights of the owners and the non-religious rights of the corporation.  The SCOTUS has already ruled that laws don't infringe on religious liberties if the entire intent of the law is secular.  And there's nothing about religion in requiring an employer to include birth control, even some that may be abortifacients, in medical insurance.  So even if the Kennedys disincorporated and ran the company as a non-corporation, they'd have no standing, since the law they're claiming violates their right to practice their religion has no religious intent.  (And they're not forced to be self-insured, which is one of their base claims - that they're directly paying for these drugs.)

Accept their claim, and you'll see companies refusing to hire, or firing, women who have abortions.  Or even never-married women who aren't virgins.  Because being forced to employ women like those would "violate their religious rights".

The only actual claim of people like this is "we don't want anyone to do anything that our sect prohibits", and that's a slippery slope with super-slippery oil spread all over it.  If you legally accommodate the Kennedys because of their sect, you have to legally accommodate the desires of any member of any religious sect that sees the law violating their "religious freedom" - and we'll see a case brought to the SCOTUS to require women to keep their faces and bodies covered while in public, and not being allowed out in public unless accompanied by a male relative.  After all, all these women walking around with bare arms, legs and faces violates the religious right of a LOT of fundamentalist Muslim male citizens of the US to not see underdressed, unaccompanied women in public.  Let alone all these women who are risking their ovaries and future children by driving cars.  (I wonder if that fatwa covers post-menopausal women, but that's a different thread.)

[ApostateLois]

Well, I liked shopping there, but I don't really need them. I can buy art supplies online easily.