Pres. Obama - Pros and Cons

[The Whit]

I like how Obama blames people who don't buy health insurance as the evil freeloaders as the problem instead of the hospitals that charge $18 for a $0.05 blood test strip.  I am a freeloader on the medical system because I don't pay into health insurance even though I have yet to go to a hospital in my entire adult life?  Obama brought up auto insurance in an interview about ACA, and drew parallels between the penalties of of not having auto insurance and not having health insurance.  The difference is I can avoid both the cost of auto insurance AND the penalties of not having it by not driving a car.  I cannot avoid both the penalties of not having health insurance AND the cost of health insurance because I can't change the fact that I'm human.  The only way to get out of this shit is to leave the country.  As someone who spent 8 years serving my country I don't appreciate the government pointing a gun at my face and telling me I HAVE to buy something...and then telling me I should be happy about it.  

There is a real problem with health care in America, but this is not a solution.

http://swampland.time.com/2013/07/01/wh ... -run-wild/

[aitm]

I almost seems to me that the only possible route to real change in this country is a revolution.

quoted for muther fukin truth.

[Poison Tree]

In case anyone forgot the choices were Obama and either McCain - "There's no country in the world I wouldn't bomb" - or Romney - "I only like rich motherfuckers."

There was no choice.

Write-ins and 3rd party candidates?  Not feasible?  Why?  Maybe it's because nobody ever fucking thinks to do it?  Maybe if we stopped choosing to go along with the elitists false dichotomy of democrat or republican we could make some real progress!

Lots of people think to do it. And quite of few of them actually do it. But if you put all those people together and then magically multiplied them by ten, you still wouldn't have enough to make a third candidate realistically electable IMO.

The system is set up such that non-(major)-party candidates don't have a chance. Let's pretend that an independent candidate popped up who was just as popular as the two major party ones--don't expect that to actually happen, though. They split the votes with no one getting enough to be president. Then the house votes to select the president (I don't remember if it is the newly elected house or the previous one). Is the majority party going to give up the chance to put their guy in?

The only way to avoid this is to actually have a 3rd party, with congressmen and governors  and the whole lot, and most (or at least many) states have rules set up to severely weaken whatever party ends up in 3rd (or lower) place. So it first would need to start with local movements to advance the position of 3rd parties in each state and then some new group would need to emerge that could compete nation-wide without simply stealing votes from one of the per-existing parties, thereby handing the election to the other side (So no tea-party as 3rd party, no Dixie-Crats).

[LikelyToBreak]

Satt wrote:

I almost seems to me that the only possible route to real change in this country is a revolution.

Your probably right.  But the costs will be horrendous.  And you risk getting disappeared even suggesting such a thing.  The Patriot Act is still in force comrade.

One thing Obamacare doesn't seem to address is the availability of healthcare workers.  If doctors can't make enough to pay off their student loans, then there won't be anybody to give the free or low-cost preventive care.  Another thing which I don't think is addressed, is tort reform in regards to healthcare.  Or for allowing more use of physician assistants in giving care.  Over a thousand pages and its' just about insurance for the most part.  I really hoped it would address the whole healthcare industry and not just health insurance.

I'm also dubious of the enforcement of regulations on the insurance companies.  Case in point, here in California PG&E suddenly tripled our bills one month.  The same month the retiring CEO of PG&E got a 100 million plus retirement package.  PG&E said it was to pay for the new smart meters they made us take, and the regulators seemingly took it hook, line, and sinker.  Making many in our state to believe the right bribes had been made.  If I am right about this, the big health insurance companies will not be watched while the small companies will get fined for not having all of their "I's" dotted.  Which will make it easier for the large companies to swallow the littler companies.

Obama will term limit out in 2019, then we will have someone else watching the hen house as it were.  I don't trust the Obama administration to ensure the regulators do what they are supposed to do, and in a few years we may have Big Daddy Warbucks in the Whitehouse watching the regulators.  

At any rate, at best Obamacare is a good first step.  At worst, it could end up causing a civil war which will make the first one look like a domestic argument.  IMHO.

[Poison Tree]

One thing Obamacare doesn't seem to address is the availability of healthcare workers.  [. . .]  Or for allowing more use of physician assistants in giving care.  

If the government were to be forward thinking--and not have to worry about cries of "government take over, more entitlements, ballooning debt, nanny state"--I think they could work to remedy this while lowering unemployment and strengthen the economy. They could, just pulling numbers off the top of my head, offer 15 year student loans with a fixed 2.5% interest rate to anyone doing an accredited  physician assistants program (would need some safe-guards, obviously). As long as they didn't flood the marked to a ridiculous degree, they should be able to find decent paying, stable jobs without too much difficulty. The government could incentivize people to fill a need. As long as I'm pipe-dreaming, it seems that schools would make programs that specialized in taking working physician assistants and turning them into actual doctors or specialists.

[Jmpty]

First world problems. There is some serious whining going on up in here. Every mother fucker on this forum has more than they deserve. Including me.

[Minimalist]

Write-ins and 3rd party candidates? Not feasible? Why? Maybe it's because nobody ever fucking thinks to do it?

There is only one thing that the two parties agree on and that is that there should only be two parties.  Take some time to examine the roadblocks that are erected to prevent third party candidates from even getting on the ballot in all 50 states and you will have some idea of the problem needed to be overcome before anyone can even think about a 3d party.

And....if a third party president were elected, how would he/she govern without any sort of faction in Congress to build upon.  

No, my friend.  This country has been stolen but you can't keep parroting "constitution this and constitution that" like those tea bagging shitheads who don't ever seem to have read the fucking thing.  The country was stolen by state legislatures and national political parties.

As for "revolution?"  By whom?  We had the same situation in Egypt when the uprising started.  A shitload of unemployed kids with college degrees who couldn't get jobs.  In Egypt they went out and brought down the government...and accomplished nothing.  Here, they sat around on their asses and waited for the newest cell phone app to come out....and accomplished nothing.

[SGOS]

At any rate, at best Obamacare is a good first step.  At worst, it could end up causing a civil war which will make the first one look like a domestic argument.  IMHO.

I think at worst, Obamacare will lock us into a second rate pro business healthcare program that will be difficult to extricate ourselves from.  As I understand, most liberals who supported healthcare still want something on par with other western societies that have single payer type systems.  

But as issues need to be addressed in Obamacare, the government will tweak it here and there giving the appearance of moving forward, while making sure the CEOs still get their bonuses.  The problem with affordable health insurance has always been the insurance companies, and that will continue to plague American families.  Private insurance needs to be taken out of the picture.  They could still sell supplemental plans, but their grip on Americans needs to be eliminated.  

That's quite draconian, but it's the revolution we need to end up with the desired outcome.  That's what happened in other western societies.  If Obamacare doesn't deliver, it will be that much more ammunition the Republicans can use against actual affordable healthcare for everyone down the road.  If it does deliver much at all, we will be told what a good job the government is doing for the people.

I don't see this as a good first step.  I see it more like a lock step, one which entrenches Americans in a less than ideal healthcare program for years to come.  Americans wanted healthcare, but few envisioned it would be what we ended up with.  I hoped the Democratic controlled House would have killed this bill as they threatened, but in spite of Congressional claims that the house didn't have enough support to pass it, the Democrats folded.  Killing the bill would have put off healthcare for a few more years, but wouldn't have saddled us with dealing with Corporate institutions, which has always been the problem that people wanted to address.

[Shiranu]

First world problems. There is some serious whining going on up in here. Every mother fucker on this forum has more than they deserve. Including me.

You're absolutely right. Instead of pointing out that the system exploits millions of people, putting millions into poverty and could be more efficent like in the rest of the world... we should just shut the fuck up and be happy with what we have. Lets just not point out the flaws and let the rich get richer while the poor get poorer, the fact that we murder thousands of civilians in countries we aren't even at war with, that our government wants to turn is into the next USSR with its espionage on its own civilians... cause I mean they have it worse in Africa so how dare you complain!

Yeah, fuck that. Just because people have it worse than us doesn't mean we have to therefor say, "Well, we are better off than them so we shouldn't try to increase our living standards or stop killing civilians in other countries.". It's exactly that type of mentality that will make us as bad off as the people who have it worse.

[The Whit]

There is only one thing that the two parties agree on and that is that there should only be two parties.  Take some time to examine the roadblocks that are erected to prevent third party candidates from even getting on the ballot in all 50 states and you will have some idea of the problem needed to be overcome before anyone can even think about a 3d party.

And....if a third party president were elected, how would he/she govern without any sort of faction in Congress to build upon.  

No, my friend.  This country has been stolen but you can't keep parroting "constitution this and constitution that" like those tea bagging shitheads who don't ever seem to have read the fucking thing.  The country was stolen by state legislatures and national political parties.

As for "revolution?"  By whom?  We had the same situation in Egypt when the uprising started.  A shitload of unemployed kids with college degrees who couldn't get jobs.  In Egypt they went out and brought down the government...and accomplished nothing.  Here, they sat around on their asses and waited for the newest cell phone app to come out....and accomplished nothing.

I never said, "vote for the third party presidential candidate and then stick your thumb up your ass."  You're right, you can't just vote out one motherfucker and change the whole system.  You need to vote out EVERYBODY!  Every third party candidate for the Senate and House.  Do NOT vote for Republicans or Democrats at all.  The American people have much more power than they think they do, they just need to use it.  You will never get what you want from your government if you keep voting for the people the rich bought out.  Have some motherfucking integrity and vote for who you want to represent you!

[LikelyToBreak]

Poison Tree, getting any politician to think further than the next election is seemingly next to impossible.  And the owners of the Fed who own the country and don't want them to think ahead.  So, it ain't gone to happen. Damn it.

Other than that, your other ideas seem to be better than what we are getting out of the Obama administration.  Ever think of running for office?  

Obama is a lame-duck president.  Why doesn't he start acting like he isn't running for re-election and expose the real hurdles to getting things done in Washington?  So what, if he steps on AIPAC's toes?  So what, if he pisses off his big multi-national campaign contributors?  So what, if his fellow Democrats get mad at him?  He should try to carry out his campaign promises, and quit blaming me for the lousy state of the union.

[Jmpty]

First world problems. There is some serious whining going on up in here. Every mother fucker on this forum has more than they deserve. Including me.

You're absolutely right. Instead of pointing out that the system exploits millions of people, putting millions into poverty and could be more efficent like in the rest of the world... we should just shut the fuck up and be happy with what we have. Lets just not point out the flaws and let the rich get richer while the poor get poorer, the fact that we murder thousands of civilians in countries we aren't even at war with, that our government wants to turn is into the next USSR with its espionage on its own civilians... cause I mean they have it worse in Africa so how dare you complain!

Yeah, fuck that. Just because people have it worse than us doesn't mean we have to therefor say, "Well, we are better off than them so we shouldn't try to increase our living standards or stop killing civilians in other countries.". It's exactly that type of mentality that will make us as bad off as the people who have it worse.

You should have just stopped there. I hear you whining about shit, but what are you doing to change it? I'm gonna guess nothing.

[Shiranu]

Sorry, I rather complain than just sit on my ass and bitch about how it's not as bad as others so why should I care.

[Minimalist]

Have some motherfucking integrity and vote for who you want to represent you!

They are not on the ballot, pal.  The choice is tweedledum and tweedledumber.

In 2012 Gary Johnson...granted, a libertarian twit...did manage to get on the ballot in 48 states.  He got less than 1% of the vote.

The Green Party running Jill Stein did far, far worse than Johnson.

Stop dreaming.  The only way to do this is to do what the tea-baggers did.  Take over one of the existing parties because so few people turn out for primary elections.

The problem there, obviously, is that it is the crazies who succeed in those efforts and if there is one thing this country does not need it is more "crazy."

[Poison Tree]

Poison Tree, getting any politician to think further than the next election is seemingly next to impossible.  

Absolutely. It is part of why dealing with the debt is so hard. Even if some perfect plan fell from heaven--metaphorically speaking, though if it actually happened it would be a sure sign of god--it could not be a quick plan. You can't say "cut all government spending to 0, 50% tax increase, pay it off in two years". So let's say someone comes up with a (picking a number just to simplify the math) 24 year plan. In that time there will be, what, 12 elections for the house, every senate seat up for vote 4 times and 6 presidential elections (assuming my math is correct). You cannot honestly expect every politician to just sit on their hands that entire time. They will have to respond to crisis, pander to voters, ect, and, inevitably, would fuck up the pest laid plans.

 

Ever think of running for office?  

I have, but not very seriously. If I did I'd have to convince voters that "I'm an atheist who used to belong to a denomination some of you think is a cult" isn't the equivalent of eating a live baby during a campaign rally. Then I'd still need an ass-load of money, which would basically necessitate wedding myself to a major party (really only the Democrats: see previous point) and selling my soul to the same fund-raisers/big donors.

I once thought about trying to get my name on the ballot for school board just to see how many votes a random name with no advertising would get, but I chickened out.