A thought for the forum

[aitm]

The whole christian humanist things sounds to me like it's written by someone who's too smart to be religious and too scared to be himself.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

You folks need to get out more. Can I really be the first Christian Humanist you've come across? There are a lot more atheist Christians than any of you seem to think.

All the Christian Atheist has done is to take one particular philosopher out of millions and choose to venerate him. We deal with too many other moronic beliefs to be bothered with your particular fringe group.

Well if you're saying that an atheist is an unthinking entity such as a newborn child or a chair then I guess there's no real point in having discussions with atheists at all. The kind of atheists I had hoped to meet on this forum was those who, like myself, had thought about their beliefs and had come to a reasoned view that rejects the notion of God or gods. But if what I'm encountering is those for whom the idea of God is simply unthinkable, and since of course what cannot be thought of cannot be rejected, then it must be true that some at least of the contributors to this forum are the type of unthinking atheists you describe.

What's wrong with being an unthinking atheist?

If most of us are anything at all, we're secular humanists; freethinkers, if you prefer. Most theists don't respond to "secular humanist," though. Society at large is too uneducated to know us by any name besides "atheist." As some even on this forum have pointed out, technically speaking it's a bit silly to identify yourself with a negative term. Unfortunately, much like the term "Hispanic," the technically-incorrect term is the one in common use, and even if we don't use "atheist" ourselves the term will eventually come up in the conversation and will be used from that point forward. The term stems from theistic chauvinism, and is something we'll just have to live with unless and until we can get most of the planet to see some degree of reason.

[Crump]

Many religious people are also atheist, this includes Jains, most Buddhists, significant numbers of Jews, many Spiritualists, Wicca of course, and increasingly Christians.

All of those except Judaism are not necessarily theistic religion.  Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are theistic religions, so Christian atheist (or Muslim atheist) is a contradiction of terms similar to colorless pink.  The only reason Jewish atheist get a pass is because Jewish identity is also understood as an ethnic/cultural identity, so Jewish in the cultural/ethnic sense but not the religious sense is possible.

No, religious Jews can also be atheist. Here is the blog of an atheist Rabbi to add to the atheist Bishop I posted earlier.

Why do you, an atheist, insist that Christians must believe in God? You are just trying to satisfy your own preconception of what a Christian is, or can be. It is you that is in denial, not I.

http://www.theatheistrabbi.com/

[Jason78]

Why do you, an atheist, insist that Christians must believe in God?

Because that is the definition of what a Christian is.


Are we on the same page now?

[Plu]

So define the word "christian" in exact terms that leave no gray area, include almost all those that call themselves christians, culls most of those that don't, isn't multiple pages long, and doesn't have at least one billion christians or one billion non christians disagreeing with you?

I mean; if you have a good and sensical definition we'll work with you. But you'd better share it. But for the time being, the word simply makes no sense and reeks of someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Crump]

It is a most depressing thing that so many folk who say they are atheist are no less dogmatic and prescriptive than those whose claim it is to be the elect of God. Why wouldn't an atheist have an open mind? If you are as certain in your views as the creationists are in their potty beliefs then you are quite as bad as them. Worse actually, because having escaped from ignorance and prejudice you have allowed yourself to fall into it again. Is human knowledge complete? No, we still have so much to learn, but everything that we have learned has been learned because we have been open to new ideas, to new ways of thinking. There is scarcely a thought in your heads that has not been thought before and by no means all, or even the majority, of those to whom you owe that intellectual debt were atheists. Do not become arrogant about atheism, as if it represents the acme of intellectual development. You can bet it's not the last word in human thought and you can also be certain that atheists do not have a monopoly on knowledge or wisdom. And for all those who do not believe that atheism is a product of human thought at all, who suppose they sprang into being with intellect intact, atheists from the womb. You are kidding yourselves. When you were small children you were ready to believe anything, and if you did not come to atheism as a reasoned choice then it is only through chance that you are not raving creationists yourselves, so a little humility would become you now.
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[DunkleSeele]

Many religious people are also atheist, this includes Jains, most Buddhists, significant numbers of Jews, many Spiritualists, Wicca of course, and increasingly Christians.

All of those except Judaism are not necessarily theistic religion.  Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are theistic religions, so Christian atheist (or Muslim atheist) is a contradiction of terms similar to colorless pink.  The only reason Jewish atheist get a pass is because Jewish identity is also understood as an ethnic/cultural identity, so Jewish in the cultural/ethnic sense but not the religious sense is possible.

No, religious Jews can also be atheist. Here is the blog of an atheist Rabbi to add to the atheist Bishop I posted earlier.

Why do you, an atheist, insist that Christians must believe in God? You are just trying to satisfy your own preconception of what a Christian is, or can be. It is you that is in denial, not I.

http://www.theatheistrabbi.com/

Because a Christian, by definition, is someone who follows the tenets of the Christian religion, the very first one being the existence of a supernatural, infallible god and Jesus having a divine nature.

In a discussion the meaning of the words is important and it's always a good practice to stick to the official definitions; and before you say that language is in constant evolution, I would suggest you to check in a good dictionary if the official definition of the word "Christian" has been changed.

[Plu]

Do not think our rejection of your claims come from closed-mindedness. It is simply the reasoned conclusion that your claims are false.

Still waiting for your definition, by the way. I'd like to continue the discussion, but it cannot be done until all the terms are understood by those involved.

[DunkleSeele]

It is a most depressing thing that so many folk who say they are atheist are no less dogmatic and prescriptive than those whose claim it is to be the elect of God. Why wouldn't an atheist have an open mind? If you are as certain in your views as the creationists are in their potty beliefs then you are quite as bad as them. Worse actually, because having escaped from ignorance and prejudice you have allowed yourself to fall into it again. Is human knowledge complete? No, we still have so much to learn, but everything that we have learned has been learned because we have been open to new ideas, to new ways of thinking. There is scarcely a thought in your heads that has not been thought before and by no means all, or even the majority, of those to whom you owe that intellectual debt were atheists. Do not become arrogant about atheism, as if it represents the acme of intellectual development. You can bet it's not the last word in human thought and you can also be certain that atheists do not have a monopoly on knowledge or wisdom. And for all those who do not believe that atheism is a product of human thought at all, who suppose they sprang into being with intellect intact, atheists from the womb. You are kidding yourselves. When you were small children you were ready to believe anything, and if you did not come to atheism as a reasoned choice then it is only through chance that you are not raving creationists yourselves, so a little humility would become you now.
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Spoken like a true preacher.

I start thinking that you're, in fact, another one of those christards who come on atheist forums to proselityse and "save those lost souls". I must give it to you, though: your approach, albeit fruitless, is quite novel. Still, no cigar.

[Hydra009]

No, religious Jews can also be atheist.

Not any more than vegans can be meat-eaters.

Why do you, an atheist, insist that Christians must believe in God? You are just trying to satisfy your own preconception of what a Christian is, or can be.

Christianity entails belief in God and the divinity of Jesus.  Those are the defining features of Christianity.  So yeah, that's why I insist that Christians must believe in a God.

(Btw, I'm going off a really loose definition of Christian, too.  Others would insist in a belief in the authority in New Testament and/or adherence to the Nicene Creed in addition to what I've stated.)

It is you that is in denial, not I.

Unless you're in denial about that, too.

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Alright, I've about had it with the other atheists being as much idiots as Crump here.

Chris·tian
?krisCH?n/
adjective
1. of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings.
"the Christian Church"
noun
1. a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Nothing to do with God or the supernatural.

If you want to argue from there, fine. If you want to argue that Jesus' sacrifice etc. are unnecessary due to the lack of original sin, fine. If you want to argue that Jesus' message is not original, fine. If you want to argue that Crump is cherry-picking only the good parts of the Bible (meaning he had a moral compass long before he ever read it), fine. Quit arguing about the definition of Christianity, though. If you're going to argue with someone's position, attack their actual argument, not a strawman. This is just embarrassing to be associated with.

[Plu]

1. a person who has received Christian baptism

Sweet! I'm a christian for life.
This makes the word totally useful in describing things, or something.

[DunkleSeele]

Alright, I've about had it with the other atheists being as much idiots as Crump here.

Chris·tian
?krisCH?n/
adjective
1. of, relating to, or professing Christianity or its teachings.
"the Christian Church"
noun
1. a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Nothing to do with God or the supernatural.

Given that God is an integral part of the teachings of Jesus Christ, it has everything to do with a supernatural god.

[DunkleSeele]

1. a person who has received Christian baptism

Sweet! I'm a christian for life.

No, you just have to write a letter to your former church saying that you "unbaptise" yourself.

[Hydra009]

I start thinking that you're, in fact, another one of those christards who come on atheist forums to proselityse and "save those lost souls". I must give it to you, though: your approach, albeit fruitless, is quite novel. Still, no cigar.

That's what I thought at first, too.  Now I just think it's someone skeptical of the supernatural aspects of Christianity yet enamored with it anyway and trying to have it both ways and desperately trying to justify their position as legitimate, if not praiseworthy.  It's sorta sad, actually.