A thought for the forum

[Crump]

Well I have to say I am enjoying the Atheist Forums. At least folk here have a point of view that they have considered, and that is more than I can say for many of the Christians that I come across on another forum. Being a Christian and an atheist is a difficult balancing act but I have managed it now for some twenty five years. Some of the Christians I meet doubt that I qualify as a Christian at all, and strangely, I've also encountered atheists who question my Christian beliefs, but none who question my atheism.
 
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But it seems to me that I am some 'intellect' that is inhabiting this decaying shell, whereas they say that it is just the decaying shell that is really thinking, fooling itself that it is something other than a quirk of nature: a bunch of organic matter that has become somehow sentient. And so, like Clarke's HAL, our consciousness gets turned on and turned off in its time, but unlike HAL, who knew where he had come from, we have no answers to our questions. But the New Atheists, they have the answers - they know the precise solution to the questions that have been troubling mankind since the first human 'woke up' and began to wonder. All we have ever really wanted to know is the answer to two simple questions, 'Where do we come from?' and 'Where do we go to?' The single answer is, of course, 'nowhere'. And if that answer isn't satisfying to you, that's because you don't believe in miracles. Oh yes, life is a miracle by any definition; but you are that miracle and you don't even know it. You want a Great Spirit, a Great Architect, a God Creator to perform the miracle for you, but you have done it yourself while you were asleep, and you will do it once more when you fall asleep again. To understand these truths all you need to have is faith.

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[aitm]

:-s

[Jason78]

[youtube:2rlfiq4f]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qnd-hdmgfk[/youtube:2rlfiq4f]

[Colanth]

But it seems to me that I am some 'intellect' that is inhabiting this decaying shell, whereas they say that it is just the decaying shell that is really thinking, fooling itself that it is something other than a quirk of nature: a bunch of organic matter that has become somehow sentient. And so, like Clarke's HAL, our consciousness gets turned on and turned off in its time, but unlike HAL, who knew where he had come from, we have no answers to our questions.

You're assuming that there ARE answers to ALL questions.  There's no evidence that there are - or even that there "should be".

You're also assuming all sorts of things about consciousness, but not presenting any evidence, and we're all about evidence.  Anyone can assert anything at all - that doesn't make it true.  (And "how else could it have happened?" is only evidence that you don't know how else it could have happened.)

So do you have any actual evidence for any of your assertions?

[LikelyToBreak]

Crump wrote in part:

Oh yes, life is a miracle by any definition; but you are that miracle and you don't even know it. You want a Great Spirit, a Great Architect, a God Creator to perform the miracle for you, but you have done it yourself while you were asleep, and you will do it once more when you fall asleep again. To understand these truths all you need to have is faith.

My definition of miracle:

MIRACLE
1
:  an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
2
:  an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
3
Christian Science :  a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law

//http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/miracle

I see no divine intervention in birth.  Just biological processes.  With 360,000 births a day, being born is not an unusual event.  No Divinity on spiritual law.

It seems Crump is putting words into the "new atheists" mouths.   As I don't recall any atheists of note, who have said they had all of the answers.  Mostly I hear them saying, "I don't know.  And neither do you."  I come from the union of my daddy and mommy.  I going to be worm food, or some equivalent place.  And I am okay with that.  My faith is in my own ability to reason.  The truths Crumb talks about are subjective and I find no comfort, no reliability, nor any objective truth in his assertions.  

Sorry if this seems harsh.  It is not meant to be.  Just my take on things.

[the_antithesis]

:-s  :-k  :-?

[Hydra009]

But it seems to me that I am some 'intellect' that is inhabiting this decaying shell, whereas they say that it is just the decaying shell that is really thinking, fooling itself that it is something other than a quirk of nature: a bunch of organic matter that has become somehow sentient. And so, like Clarke's HAL, our consciousness gets turned on and turned off in its time, but unlike HAL, who knew where he had come from, we have no answers to our questions.

Oh yes, life is a miracle by any definition; but you are that miracle and you don't even know it.

Substantiate or retract.  The assertion that consciousness is somehow separate from matter is particularly galling.

[Dreamer]

Wait. Whut?

[mykcob4]

Well I have to say I am enjoying the Atheist Forums. At least folk here have a point of view that they have considered, and that is more than I can say for many of the Christians that I come across on another forum. Being a Christian and an atheist is a difficult balancing act but I have managed it now for some twenty five years. Some of the Christians I meet doubt that I qualify as a Christian at all, and strangely, I've also encountered atheists who question my Christian beliefs, but none who question my atheism.
 
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But it seems to me that I am some 'intellect' that is inhabiting this decaying shell, whereas they say that it is just the decaying shell that is really thinking, fooling itself that it is something other than a quirk of nature: a bunch of organic matter that has become somehow sentient. And so, like Clarke's HAL, our consciousness gets turned on and turned off in its time, but unlike HAL, who knew where he had come from, we have no answers to our questions. But the New Atheists, they have the answers - they know the precise solution to the questions that have been troubling mankind since the first human 'woke up' and began to wonder. All we have ever really wanted to know is the answer to two simple questions, 'Where do we come from?' and 'Where do we go to?' The single answer is, of course, 'nowhere'. And if that answer isn't satisfying to you, that's because you don't believe in miracles. Oh yes, life is a miracle by any definition; but you are that miracle and you don't even know it. You want a Great Spirit, a Great Architect, a God Creator to perform the miracle for you, but you have done it yourself while you were asleep, and you will do it once more when you fall asleep again. To understand these truths all you need to have is faith.

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Okay I stopped reading when you stated that you are a christian AND an Atheist. That is absurd.
So heres the deal. If you can't decide then thats fine but you cannot be both. I and no Atheist I know of will recruit you to become an Atheist. Every single christian I know will recruit you to not only be a christian, but it won't count with them unless you are their particular type of christain.
So you have your work cut out for you. You say that you are an intellect, so lets see some of that brain power. Decide don't decide, I really don't care. If you do decide I don't really care which side you choose, but you can't be both.

[Crump]

But it seems to me that I am some 'intellect' that is inhabiting this decaying shell, whereas they say that it is just the decaying shell that is really thinking, fooling itself that it is something other than a quirk of nature: a bunch of organic matter that has become somehow sentient. And so, like Clarke's HAL, our consciousness gets turned on and turned off in its time, but unlike HAL, who knew where he had come from, we have no answers to our questions.

You're assuming that there ARE answers to ALL questions.  There's no evidence that there are - or even that there "should be".

You're also assuming all sorts of things about consciousness, but not presenting any evidence, and we're all about evidence.  Anyone can assert anything at all - that doesn't make it true.  (And "how else could it have happened?" is only evidence that you don't know how else it could have happened.)

So do you have any actual evidence for any of your assertions?

Now you see, you've misunderstood me completely. I'm writing about my feelings, and for those I don't need any evidence. But although you call them assertions they are really more like suggestions, aren't they? And where are these assumptions of which you speak? I have assumed nothing except that I seem to be conscious. Without being too presumptuous I might assume that you also are conscious, although I remain acutely aware of the possibility that I could be mistaken. Certainly every question that it is possible to ask, it is also possible to answer, although not every answer may be satisfactory to every questioner; for if I was to ask you, "Does this question have an answer?" you would, of course, be able to provide one, even though that answer may be 'no'.  

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[kilodelta]

"A feeling for the forum" then?

[Crump]

Okay I stopped reading when you stated that you are a christian AND an Atheist. That is absurd.
So heres the deal. If you can't decide then thats fine but you cannot be both. I and no Atheist I know of will recruit you to become an Atheist. Every single christian I know will recruit you to not only be a christian, but it won't count with them unless you are their particular type of christain.
So you have your work cut out for you. You say that you are an intellect, so lets see some of that brain power. Decide don't decide, I really don't care. If you do decide I don't really care which side you choose, but you can't be both.

Can you recruit an atheist? I don't believe you can. An atheist must make up his or her own mind and come to a decision based on reason. Above all an atheist must doubt, because without doubt reason cannot function. So it ill behoves a true atheist to declare what another person can or can't think, especially if that other person has been an atheist for fifty years and has probably thought about these things much longer and much deeper than those who say, "You cant be that." Yes I can be both atheist and Christian and the only difficulty is that you cannot understand that. The problem is yours, my friend, not mine.
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[PickelledEggs]

Yes I can be both atheist and Christian and the only difficulty is that you cannot understand that. The problem is yours, my friend, not mine.
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Being christian means believing in the christian faith, mythology, and god, in either part or full. Being atheist means no belief in any part of any religion. That's what atheism is. No belief in that stuff. None, zero, zilch, nada, 0, naught, (how many other ways can I say none?)

You are going to have to tell us what you mean by you being christian, as well as you being atheist. that way we can be on the same page. Otherwise I don't understand what your saying. And that is because of a communication discrepancy on your part.

[kilodelta]

Yes I can be both atheist and Christian and the only difficulty is that you cannot understand that. The problem is yours, my friend, not mine.
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Being christian means believing in the christian faith, mythology, and god, in either part or full. Being atheist means no belief in any part of any religion. That's what atheism is. No belief in that stuff. None, zero, zilch, nada, 0, naught, (how many other ways can I say none?)

You are going to have to tell us what you mean by you being christian, as well as you being atheist. that way we can be on the same page. Otherwise I don't understand what your saying. And that is because of a communication discrepancy on your part.

An atheist can be religious. e.g. Buddhists
Here's a listing: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Secular_re ... _Religions

An atheist can believe in ghosts, karma, and witchcraft... all sorts of faith-based reasoning.

The only thing about the atheist is that they do not have a god belief.

As for who's a Christian, it can be loosely interpreted.

[PickelledEggs]

Between what kilo said and what Crump pm-ed me (//http://www.christianhumanist.net/christianity-without-religion.html) I have a bit more of an idea of what he is talking about.

I think I'm on the same page now...