Israel and its history of false flag attacks

[zarus tathra]

Because it tells us who our worst enemies are. If it turns out that Israel did it, then we should no long support Israel.

[Insult to Rocks]

Because it tells us who our worst enemies are. If it turns out that Israel did it, then we should no long support Israel.

We shouldn't support Israel because they abuse the Palestinians, not because some idiotic 9/11 truthers accuse them of being behind the attack. There are far too many pressing issues in the world at the moment to be obsessing about a 12 year old terrorist attack. At this point, I wouldn't even care if lizard men were proven to have orchestrated the attacks with holograms, we need to move on!

[Shiranu]

Because it tells us who our worst enemies are. If it turns out that Israel did it, then we should no long support Israel.

We shouldn't support Israel because they abuse the Palestinians, not because some idiotic 9/11 truthers accuse them of being behind the attack. There are far too many pressing issues in the world at the moment to be obsessing about a 12 year old terrorist attack. At this point, I wouldn't even care if lizard men were proven to have orchestrated the attacks with holograms, we need to move on!

And the Palestinians put bombs on little children and send them into buses and hotels, and kill civilian Olympians in Germany...

I don't think we should support Israel anymore than I think we should support anywhere else, but it has nothing to do with them protecting themselves from the Palestinians.

[Insult to Rocks]

Because it tells us who our worst enemies are. If it turns out that Israel did it, then we should no long support Israel.

We shouldn't support Israel because they abuse the Palestinians, not because some idiotic 9/11 truthers accuse them of being behind the attack. There are far too many pressing issues in the world at the moment to be obsessing about a 12 year old terrorist attack. At this point, I wouldn't even care if lizard men were proven to have orchestrated the attacks with holograms, we need to move on!

And the Palestinians put bombs on little children and send them into buses and hotels, and kill civilian Olympians in Germany...

I don't think we should support Israel anymore than I think we should support anywhere else, but it has nothing to do with them protecting themselves from the Palestinians.

Hold on. I wasn't saying the Palestinians were paragons of justice or anything, and not supporting Israel isn't the same as supporting the Palestinians, but they were forced off there homes and land because the U.N. felt that the Jews were entitled to it. The whole bloody conflict is stupid, and nobody has made any headway on making it less stupid for some time now.
The point is that there are far better reasons to distance our self from Israel than some stupid crackpot 9/11 "theory".

[Shiranu]

The majority of them were not forced off their land, for the most part the land was legally sold to Jewish immigrants. The Jews were mostly given desert and marsh that was hardly inhabited.

The majority of Palestinians come from Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, etc. that invaded Israel several times and lost land several times. They are not some helpless farmers that were kicked off their farms, they were Arabs "imported" to counter the Jewish influx back into the ME and told, "If you beat the Jews, you get to keep their lands!"

For the one's who were native, I feel bad for them and think they deserve their land. But they are in the minority. And there is ALOT of shit Israel gets wrong and needs to get together. But Palestine as a whole is a shithole that deserves to be pissed off at the Arab League for abandoning them after using them as a tool to kill Jews, not to be pissed off at Israel.

[Insult to Rocks]

The majority of them were not forced off their land, for the most part the land was legally sold to Jewish immigrants. The Jews were mostly given desert and marsh that was hardly inhabited.

The majority of Palestinians come from Jordan, Iraq, Egypt, etc. that invaded Israel several times and lost land several times. They are not some helpless farmers that were kicked off their farms, they were Arabs "imported" to counter the Jewish influx back into the ME and told, "If you beat the Jews, you get to keep their lands!"

For the one's who were native, I feel bad for them and think they deserve their land. But they are in the minority. And there is ALOT of shit Israel gets wrong and needs to get together. But Palestine as a whole is a shithole that deserves to be pissed off at the Arab League for abandoning them after using them as a tool to kill Jews, not to be pissed off at Israel.

Again, not saying they're paragons or anything, and I'm no an expert on the origins of the conflict, just how it is now.
But yes, Israel has allot to answer for. Which is why we don't need to fabricate claims to attach them to crimes they didn't commit.

[zarus tathra]

There's also the little fact that Israel has done basically nothing to help the US in any material way. We should only make allies with people who are of real use to us and make enemies of people who have done material harm to us. George Washington gave a speech when leaving the presidency to the effect that the US can not afford to have permanent "friend" and "foe" countries and had to choose its alliances based on their recent behavior and not on racial and nationalistic sympathies. I wholly agree.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Apart from the moral issues that come with supporting Israel, from a Realpolitik angle, it's pretty counterproductive, earning us unnecessary enemies ... and largely because religious conservatives here feel obliged to support "God's Chosen People".

We should leave well enough alone in the Middle East.  We get around 25% of our imports from the region (Saudi, Iraq, Kuwait, and Oman).  Most of their oil goes to China and Japan.  Let them secure their own oil supplies.

[zarus tathra]

Not to mention that the price of oil would probably go down and production would probably go up if we stopped bombing them and propping up their welfare-happy regimes. Most Saudis don't even work because their government is so liberal with the bread and circuses. Venezuela, same idea, after a "generous" dictator got into power, the decades-long trend of increasing oil production suddenly and inexplicably reversed itself.

[Insult to Rocks]

Not to mention that the price of oil would probably go down and production would probably go up if we stopped bombing them and propping up their welfare-happy regimes. Most Saudis don't even work because their government is so liberal with the bread and circuses. Venezuela, same idea, after a "generous" dictator got into power, the decades-long trend of increasing oil production suddenly and inexplicably reversed itself.

Okay, ignoring the rest of your meaningless rambling, what do bread and cicruses have to do with each other? I didn't know the Ringling Brothers had a middle east branch.

[zarus tathra]

"Bread and circuses" is a really common, even generic term for appeasing the masses with handouts without doing anything long-term to address grievances and ambitions.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I wouldn't say his point here is meaningless.

The reference to "bread and circuses" is from the following quote:

"'It is scarcely possible that the eyes of contemporaries should discover in the public felicity the latent causes of decay and corruption. This long peace, and the uniform government of the Romans, introduced a slow and secret poison into the vitals of the empire. The minds of men were gradually reduced to the same level, the fire of genius was extinguished, and even the military spirit evaporated.' Now that no one buys our votes, the public has long since cast off its cares; the people that once bestowed commands, consulships, legions and all else, now meddles no more and longs eagerly for just two things----Bread and Games!"

[AtheistMoFo]

I have not read every post in this discussion, but have skimmed through to get the general drift.  There is something I want to say about the OP.

Without actually saying so in so many words, this is basically an accusation that "the israelis pulled off 9/11."  The overwhelming majority of those posting on this topic seem to think it could not be so.  But why?

Anyone who has done their homework would know of the Lavon Affair and would not even attempt to deny it.  That would only show ignorance and arrogance.  And if they have truly done their homework, they would also know about the USS Libery.  Whoever considers the latter to have been an accident or a case of mistaken identity is not being realistic.  It was a sunny day, perfect visibility, and the Liberty was clearly flying a very large American flag.  And if you do your research a little deeper, you will have to conclude that it was a deliberate attack on the US navy ship.  That is why it was covered up for 30 years.  If Americans knew that the israelis had murdered tens of their countrymen and injured many more, they would not stand for the support the US government has been providing all these years.

But that does not necessarily mean that the israelis did 9/11.  On the other hand, it does show that they are at least capable of doing it.  So *if* 9/11 was really a false flag op afterall, and I am not saying that it was, we could not rule out the possibility that at least a few israeli leaders could have been in on the conspiracy.

Just sayin'

[Insult to Rocks]

I have not read every post in this discussion, but have skimmed through to get the general drift.  There is something I want to say about the OP.

Without actually saying so in so many words, this is basically an accusation that "the israelis pulled off 9/11."  The overwhelming majority of those posting on this topic seem to think it could not be so.  But why?

Anyone who has done their homework would know of the Lavon Affair and would not even attempt to deny it.  That would only show ignorance and arrogance.  And if they have truly done their homework, they would also know about the USS Libery.  Whoever considers the latter to have been an accident or a case of mistaken identity is not being realistic.  It was a sunny day, perfect visibility, and the Liberty was clearly flying a very large American flag.  And if you do your research a little deeper, you will have to conclude that it was a deliberate attack on the US navy ship.  That is why it was covered up for 30 years.  If Americans knew that the israelis had murdered tens of their countrymen and injured many more, they would not stand for the support the US government has been providing all these years.

But that does not necessarily mean that the israelis did 9/11.  On the other hand, it does show that they are at least capable of doing it.  So *if* 9/11 was really a false flag op afterall, and I am not saying that it was, we could not rule out the possibility that at least a few israeli leaders could have been in on the conspiracy.

Just sayin'

We only say this because there is absolutely no evidence saying they did do it. I'm not saying they couldn't. Hell, a bunch of drunk air force guys can fly a plane into a building. But we object because there is no evidence that they did, regardless of means or motive, and because paranoid conspiracies like this never get us anywhere.

[AtheistMoFo]

... basically an accusation that "the israelis pulled off 9/11."  The overwhelming majority of those posting on this topic seem to think it could not be so.  But why?

We only say this because there is absolutely no evidence saying they did do it. I'm not saying they couldn't. Hell, a bunch of drunk air force guys can fly a plane into a building. But we object because there is no evidence that they did, regardless of means or motive, and because paranoid conspiracies like this never get us anywhere.

OK, I will not argue about that.  But there were a few posts (and I don't remember by whom) flat out denying any possibility of an israeli connection.  The fact is, we can not rule out that possibility.  And I see noting paranoid about the suggestion that at least a handful of israelis may have been involved.  What I mean is this.  As you yourself have stated, they had the motive and they had the means.  What is so paranoid about suggesting that where there is motive and there is means, we oughtta do a little digging before lettin them off the hook so easily.