"Don't give up", nice utopia, OP ED about swimmer.

Started by Brian37, September 03, 2013, 11:59:39 AM

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Brian37

Ok, word has been out about that female swimmer who after 35 years and 4 attempts successfully on her 5th attempt made it from Cuba to America in 53 hours.

KUDOS, fine. But I do get sick of utopian projection in that what may work for one person can always work for everyone all the time. Life in reality is messy and is never a fairy tale. It is nice to see people succeed, no doubt. But it is dangerous to sell fairy tales as a measure and absolute.

For every Trump their are millions of store clerks. For every NFL player who has a successful career, there are millions of college players who will NOT make the league. Why is it dangerous to sell "just do it"?

Richard Jenny is an example. He was one of my favorite comedians, who never hit the big time on par with say Jerry Seinfeld. While he did gain a livable career, he never got that big. He committed suicide because of society bombarding him his entire life that the only measure of a human being is to succeed.

There is nothing wrong with trying, but when you don't balance it with the real odds, you are mentally destroying your own self and sanity based on a fleeting chance. The truth of reality for most is we are lucky if we can manage.

While it is true that things would not be done, such as cities like New York being built, and getting to the moon, would not happen without the "dreamers". It is selfish as a society to project the success of the few as a cure all. The truth will always bee that the few are ALWAYS standing on the work of the many. For every rock star, it takes many fans to support their music, and the luck of meeting someone who can market them. For every CEO there will always be far more store clerks and janitors.

Far too much of our society focuses on selling that "brass ring", which we don't begrudge people of obtaining. But lost in all that is that those who do are ALWAYS standing on the shoulders of those bellow them. There is a lack of appreciation for the middle and poor classes whom the top want to blame for everything.I don't mind "you can try". I do mind that being sold without grounded reality of odds. To sell such is what sets people up for failure, and is mentally unhealthy as well, and is what lead Richard to commit suicide.

Whoopie Goldburg once on "Inside The Actor's Studio" responded to the question of a student actor "Will we make it big". She said, "You are all capable of being great actors, but most of you if not all of you, WILL NOT, sit where I am sitting now'.

So this lady managed to achieve her goals. But she did not do it alone, and she is a fool for saying everyone who attempts the same thing will succeed. This OP ED is not about "aiming low". But advocacy of not clouding reality.  If you manage to make it to a safe neighborhood and can pay your bills and stay out of dept, when you look at the world's population by comparison, you are doing good.

You can be happy for people who "make it" without projecting what you might accomplish and stupidly set it up as a universal standard. I do think we can educate and empower more people so that collectively quality of living can go up for more people. But it is stupid to sell fairy tales.

Lady, I am happy for you that you achieved your goal of making that swim. But please, don't project yourself on a species that has always been diverse. We no matter what we do in life, can always try our best, that part is true.  To me you are never a failure because work is work and if you are doing an honest job, no job is too small or unimportant. Someone had to make that swimsuit you wore. Someone had to train your safety team that supported you on that swim. Someone had to work in the factories that made the boats and jellyfish nets to protect you. Someone had to educate the weather trackers to predict the ocean tides and currents to predict the best time to make the attempt.

Bottom line is for me, everyone plays a part in society not just those who "succeed". No one does everything by themselves. Even this post is due to the fact of the creator of this website and the owners of this website. And the factory workers who assembled my computer and the truck drivers who shipped it, to the road and bridge workers who built the highways they drove on, to the teachers that taught them, and all of us.

Life is both work and luck, and for every "success" story we hear there are always far more who they stand on for their support that will not do what they did.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

Solitary

Brian, that was excellently written and a very astute observation.  =D>  Bravo!  8-)  Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

Plu

I think success is something you should personally define, and never let society define for you. Did "that female swimmer" make millions of dollars from her swim? Did she cure cancer? Save babies from a fire?

No. The reason this is an inspiring story of success is that she challenged herself and managed to succeed at what she thought was important. Your favorite comedian committed suicide in large part because he let other people define what success was, and could not live up to them.

If you let others define what it means to be succesful, you will never be succesful at anything. People will always expect more and better, no matter who you are. The only thing that should matter is how you overcome the challenges you set yourself.

For every thousand rock stars who mope they never made it big, there are another thousand rock stars who love making music, and who will continue to make music they love, regardless of what society thinks. And those will always be more succesful at living their own life than the people who sell their soul in an attempt to live up to society's expectations.

Brian37

Quote from: "Plu"I think success is something you should personally define, and never let society define for you. Did "that female swimmer" make millions of dollars from her swim? Did she cure cancer? Save babies from a fire?

No. The reason this is an inspiring story of success is that she challenged herself and managed to succeed at what she thought was important. Your favorite comedian committed suicide in large part because he let other people define what success was, and could not live up to them.

If you let others define what it means to be succesful, you will never be succesful at anything. People will always expect more and better, no matter who you are. The only thing that should matter is how you overcome the challenges you set yourself.

For every thousand rock stars who mope they never made it big, there are another thousand rock stars who love making music, and who will continue to make music they love, regardless of what society thinks. And those will always be more succesful at living their own life than the people who sell their soul in an attempt to live up to society's expectations.

Right, he did. But where is the responsibility of society collectively in preventing it? I agree it is best to define yourself, but we are part of a species that loves fairy tales over reality and we project our own selfish desires on others.

If there are no such thing as utopias or fairy tales then we should not take what this swimmer did as gospel. It simply was what worked for her, nothing more.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

Brian37

This is also a fact of evolution and even down to entropy as well. There will never be 100% input equaling 100% output. Human sperm in our species history alone, 99.999999999% does nothing. We stupidly as a species think 7 billion represents a majority of success when the opposite is true. The current living population is a tiny fraction of all the attempts and sperm that do nothing.

For every tree, insect, fish, or human, their are far more attempts at life that do nothing. And while life still manages, it is still a collective ecosystem where all parts can have an affect on other parts of that ecosystem.

In reality the improvement on quality of life for more humans is to accept the diversity, even on the economic scale, rather than selling utopias that will not exist. Like I said, for everyone who reaches that "brass ring", there is a collective society they stand on, which is where the majority of the population is in reality.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

Plu

QuoteBut where is the responsibility of society collectively in preventing it?

It starts and ends with you. You cannot influence the actions of others, except through your own. Did you wish for your comedian to make it big? Then you are part of the collective that drove him to his actions. Did you wish for him to be happy? Then you are part of the smaller, responsible part of society. Did you actually send him a message telling him to be happy and not let others define his success? Then you are a great and inspiring person.

A society does not have responsibilities. Only a person has those, and it's up to him to make the best of them.

QuoteI agree it is best to define yourself, but we are part of a species that loves fairy tales over reality and we project our own selfish desires on others.

Fuck the species. You are only a part if you let yourself be dragged along by society.

Brian37

QuoteIt starts and ends with you. You cannot influence the actions of others, except through your own.

Wrong. Nothing in life is an either/or proposition, just like in science chaos and order are not exclusive but overlapping.

My road to atheism began with a question from another person long ago. That question had an influence on me, so without it, there would have been no trigger to lead me down that road.

What negates that entire statement is "accept through your own". Right, which is an admission that your actions DO have an influence on others, and as such, as much as you might want to claim Richard did it to himself. Just like if there were no bible to read, people wouldn't use it as a weapon.

Richard's demise is as much society as it was his own, not either or, but conditions that overlap.

If life was as simple as "It starts and ends with you", then if all you had to do as a NFL player in a league with 32 teams, was to say "All I have to do is win", we'd have the same team winning the Super Bowl year after year. The reality is only one team will win that game each year and 31 other teams wont. So as much as "it is you" that gets that win, you have to beat others who wont get that win, so your actions and their actions lead to the conditions of that outcome collectively.

It is not either/or. Simplistic solutions to a flawed and complex reality never work as blanket solutions.

Life is complex and messy and never as simple as a platitude.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

Plu

You seem to be putting a number of things in the same explanation.

For one, the whole story about "winning a game" seems irrelevant. "I want to win the superbowl" sounds very much like trying to achieve goals set by society, not a personal one. Most "I want to be the best" goals fall in that category. It's letting other people define what it means to be succesful.

And for two, when I said that I meant you should not blame "society" for things, because society is just a bunch of people. If you think there's a problem, try and fix it yourself. If you cannot be bothered to try and fix it yourself, don't blame others for not fixing it for you. If you think you are unable to fix it yourself, don't complain when others think the same thing.

But in the end, you let society influence you, or you do not. Most people do. But it's silly to blame society for it, when you feel no personal responsibility for it. Why would anyone else, if you don't?

Solitary

If society wants to draft you into serving your country it influences you like it or not, and it sure can be blamed for putting you in that position. Solitary
There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action.

AtheTurk

congrulate her.

although im 24 i canT what she could.

Hydra009

#10
Quote from: "Brian37"For every Trump their are millions of store clerks. For every NFL player who has a successful career, there are millions of college players who will NOT make the league.
Exactly.  And that goes double for the the myth of the lone genius inventor.  Not only are inventors seldom successful, even the best of 'em usually never did it alone.  Usually, it was collaborative effort and building off of previous work (virtually every major invention from the incandescent lightbulb to the internal combustion engine to computers, went through successive intermediate stages, there was no eureka moment where someone just went out and built one from scratch)

Don't get me wrong, there are people who do great work, and very very very rarely, the credit is entirely theirs.  But it's definitely not the norm.

Brian37

Quote from: "Plu"You seem to be putting a number of things in the same explanation.

For one, the whole story about "winning a game" seems irrelevant. "I want to win the superbowl" sounds very much like trying to achieve goals set by society, not a personal one. Most "I want to be the best" goals fall in that category. It's letting other people define what it means to be succesful.

And for two, when I said that I meant you should not blame "society" for things, because society is just a bunch of people. If you think there's a problem, try and fix it yourself. If you cannot be bothered to try and fix it yourself, don't blame others for not fixing it for you. If you think you are unable to fix it yourself, don't complain when others think the same thing.

But in the end, you let society influence you, or you do not. Most people do. But it's silly to blame society for it, when you feel no personal responsibility for it. Why would anyone else, if you don't?

If some poor person sticks a gun to my head and robs me because they are desperate for money, sure "ultimately" they can be blamed. But that only works when conditions for most would negate a economic climate that would produce such behavior. It is however, the fault of society collectively, if they claim they want to reduce that desperation, and do nothing to create better conditions. Understanding conditions is an explanation, not an excuse.

Who do you think has more economic power to foster better conditions, the people with more money, or the people with less money?

Facing people with the fact that most people WILL NOT become rich or famous is not an excuse for the top to say "fuck you I got mine". But that is what we have.

From this swimmer, to a successful NFL player, to pop star, to CEO, great, but there is nothing wrong at all with pointing out the reality that this is the exception, not the norm. And to ignore the imbalance of power that has exploded over the past 30 years between the classes is stupid and dangerous, not only to the health of the worker, but the rich as well.

No one who obtains even a personal goal did it all by themselves. Otherwise this swimmer would not need back up to watch her.

If life worked that way in reality, one could move to an deserted island with no communication or materials, live there by themselves, and build a city on it.

When I buy gas I depend on a clerk to run the register. I depend on a truck driver to deliver the gas. I depend on road workers to build the roads I drive on. I depend on the teachers who taught all of them.

Even when you go to the movies, you depend on the ticket seller, you depend on the staff to clean the theater between showings. You depend on the janitor to keep the bathrooms clean.

No, for the past 30 years the middle class and working poor have been scapegoated by the likes of the Koch brothers. But I will say it does seem that the tide is changing. Occupy was the first sign, and now fast food workers continuing to raise their voices. I'd say we are doing something about it.

"Fix it yourself" is the same fucking "blame the victim" mentality by the bully who wont admit it comes from a position of greed. It is that same heat shield tobacco tried with "smokers rights" to avoid lawsuits. It is the same false cry the gun manufacturers have by throwing the NRA in as their heat shield.

No, fuck this crap, I am tired of it. The people at the top, not all, but far too many, have gotten away for far too long with scapegoating the rest of us. This swimmer is the exception, not the norm, nor does her personal goal have a damned thing to do with the collective pay gap that is killing our economy.

Her success is a personal one, and should not be a projection on others. Good for her, but it is not a cure all in a diverse society. It worked for her, but only her. Work and luck are not exclusive but overlapping and I will never apologize for saying there are far more shoulders stood on, then there are people who stand on shoulders.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37

SGOS

She set a goal that was important to her, and she accomplished it.  I don't see it as a win for society, nor do I gain inspiration from it.  When it comes right down to it, swimming from Cuba to the US doesn't make much sense.  But that being said, I say, "Good for her."  She did something she wanted to do, and doing the things you want to do is what (I think) life should be all about.  I personally believe he who dies with the most adventures, wins.  But other things besides adventures count too.  If you're lying on your death bed and satisfied that you did the things you wanted to do, you win.

stromboli

Quote from: "SGOS"She set a goal that was important to her, and she accomplished it.  I don't see it as a win for society, nor do I gain inspiration from it.  When it comes right down to it, swimming from Cuba to the US doesn't make much sense.  But that being said, I say, "Good for her."  She did something she wanted to do, and doing the things you want to do is what (I think) life should be all about.  I personally believe he who dies with the most adventures, wins.  But other things besides adventures count too.  If you're lying on your death bed and satisfied that you did the things you wanted to do, you win.

Good topic. Good response by SGOS. Call swimming a notable achievement if you want, for me it is a "meh, so what?" Success at something specific like stand up comedian or swimming is a very personal act. If you don't know going in what the odds are, or dream bigger than you can succeed, failure is built into the outcome.

Honestly, we do live in a society that projects itself on us in terms of what is defined as success. Donald Trump is held up as some model of success, but if the had been born into a different family and circumstances, might just as likely be a janitor. I've succeeded in my own life by overcoming some serious financial and life issues. Born into a staunchly Mormon family, I am the only one of 8 siblings that came out of it financially secure and happily married in retirement, which I count as success.

Brian37

Quote from: "SGOS"She set a goal that was important to her, and she accomplished it.

Again, fine, but where she went wrong was when she said "don't give up your dreams".  I write poetry. But considering the amount of poets, famous and non famous, far more non famous, while I will never stop writing, I do not expect to become famous or rich doing it.

Just like Whoopie rightfully said, you can be happy doing what you do, no matter what you do, but don't think just because you do you will become rich and famous doing it, most people WILL NOT.

It is the lack of that statement being grounded in reality I object to, not her personal desires or success. Again, this is the problem with our society collectively. We get sold impossible standards, chase utopias because of platitudes that are not even the majority outcome.

I hate youth being sold sports especially as a way out, I don't care if it is football, or basketball or tennis or soccer or golf. MOST kids who play sports will NEVER get to the pro level. Now that is not to say they shouldn't do it. I think it is more damaging to sell them a fairy tale that wont exist.

I think it is better to say " do what you want, be happy, educate yourself". Leave it at that.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers." Obama
Poetry By Brian37 Like my poetry on Facebook Under BrianJames Rational Poet and also at twitter under Brianrrs37