Right! They're Smartter Than atheists.

[Hydra009]

Yeah, that kind of stuff always makes me sad.  But that's what happens when Christianity becomes nothing more than superstitions or people flocking together to seek signs & wonders, exactly the kind of thing warned against by Christ.

Oh yeah, that sort of thinking is condemned in the Bible...

[ Image ]

Actually, yes it is.

And you'd be wrong yet again.

John 4

46 So he came again to Cana in Galilee, where he had made the water wine. And at Capernaum there was an official whose son was ill. 47 When this man heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went to him and asked him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 So Jesus said to him, "Unless you[c] see signs and wonders you will not believe." 49 The official said to him, "Sir, come down before my child dies." 50 Jesus said to him, "Go; your son will live." The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way. 51 As he was going down, his servants[d] met him and told him that his son was recovering. 52 So he asked them the hour when he began to get better, and they said to him, "Yesterday at the seventh hour[e] the fever left him." 53 The father knew that was the hour when Jesus had said to him, "Your son will live." And he himself believed, and all his household. 54 This was now the second sign that Jesus did when he had come from Judea to Galilee.

Signs and wonders, indeed.

[the_antithesis]

Actually, yes it is.

See, this is why people hate christians. You could have gone on to bible gateway and found the passage and verse and quoted it here or just gave the reference, but you didn't. You just expect us to take us at your word for no other reason than you had said it. This show that faith is actually pride.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Actually, yes it is.

See, this is why people hate christians. You could have gone on to bible gateway and found the passage and verse and quoted it here or just gave the reference, but you didn't. You just expect us to take us at your word for no other reason than you had said it. This show that faith is actually pride.

It's like when he asserted that morality comes from god but then claimed it wasn't an assertion.

Typical, carbon copies.

[SGOS]

Why does God need a tree to shed tears?  You want tears from God?  How about rain?  Why not say raindrops are God's tears?  But aphid doo doo falling off a tree?  That's downright embarrassing!  Hey people, you wouldn't go out of your way to walk in doo doo.  For goodness sake, don't stand under it.  I wonder how the arborist feels?  Here he is explaining what's happening, and people are just ignoring him.  "No, no.  Those are God's tears.  God is crying because he's sad."  Doesn't anyone concern themselves with why God is sad?  It seems like it could be really important, but no one seems to care about that part  It's a nice display of belief, but it seems like just half of a thought, like part of their brains are missing.

[gomtuu77]

Sure it is, just like loads of other stuff. Like a lot of things you are probably doing. But you're just going to rationalise that god didn't consider that problematic.

Tell me... on how many topics do you disagree with god, but live as he commands instead of how you think you should live?

Disagree?  None that I'm aware of.  To the extent that I do, I would be in the wrong.  But it does depend upon what you mean.  Typically, what happens is that someone ascribes their own meaning to some passage or text while pretending to take it at face value, in context, and in the sense intended.  I'm sure open to hearing your point of view though.  Do you have something in particular in mind?

Also, I should add, if you are asking whether I live in perfect harmony with God's will, then the answer would be no.  I don't know any human being on the planet that does.

[Plu]

Disagree? None that I'm aware of.

I assumed as much. It's fascinating how there can be 2 billion christians, each of them a completely different person, with different values, different morals, different opinions, different life styles, and there isn't a single one amongst them who feels they disagree with anything god says. Even though they do totally contradicationary things and all of them consider most other people who claim to believe in the same god to be wrong about what that god thinks on every point where that person disagrees with their personal opinion.

Makes you wonder: do you believe in what is right because god says so, or does god say so because you believe it is right?

[NeoLogic26]

Perhaps it's my misanthropy showing through, but I got a hearty laugh at people getting shit on by bugs and thinking it's divine tears. That arborist alsmost seemed sheepish at trying to explain that it was aphid shit, tip-toeing around the delicate religious sensibilities of simpletons.

[gomtuu77]

John 4

46 So he came again to Cana in Galilee, where he had made the water wine. And at Capernaum there was an official whose son was ill. 47 When this man heard that Jesus had come from Judea to Galilee, he went to him and asked him to come down and heal his son, for he was at the point of death. 48 So Jesus said to him, "Unless you[c] see signs and wonders you will not believe." 49 The official said to him, "Sir, come down before my child dies." 50 Jesus said to him, "Go; your son will live." The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and went on his way. 51 As he was going down, his servants[d] met him and told him that his son was recovering. 52 So he asked them the hour when he began to get better, and they said to him, "Yesterday at the seventh hour[e] the fever left him." 53 The father knew that was the hour when Jesus had said to him, "Your son will live." And he himself believed, and all his household. 54 This was now the second sign that Jesus did when he had come from Judea to Galilee.

Signs and wonders, indeed.

What exactly is your point?

Do you think I'm saying that Christ didn't attest to His status with miracles or signs & wonders?  That's not what I'm saying at all.  I'm saying that what is actually taught in scripture is what Christ made clear in Matthew 12 & John 20.  It's only an evil and adulterous generation that are always looking for a sign, and it's far better to believe God on the basis of what He declares rather than His always having to give you a sign.  Where is the trust (i.e. faith) if God is constantly having to reconfirm in your own mind, His identity?  We already have enough light (i.e. evidence) of His obvious reality, no matter how hard some of us work to deny or refuse to acknowledge it by way of every kind of rationalization and 'just so' story.  That's what I'm talking about.  Groups that constantly promote miracles and signs & wonders, which are typically more superstition than reality, in order to prey on people's emotions, are that evil and adulterous generation...much like the Pharisees of old.

[gomtuu77]

Actually, yes it is.

See, this is why people hate christians. You could have gone on to bible gateway and found the passage and verse and quoted it here or just gave the reference, but you didn't. You just expect us to take us at your word for no other reason than you had said it. This show that faith is actually pride.

Huh?  You hate Christians because they fail to cite verses?  That seems awfully harsh for such a minor failing.  If you want citations, they are available.  However, I'm just describing to you basic Christian teaching.  If you want further information, and I can provide it, I'll be happy to accommodate you.  I don't typically cite the Bible, since atheists tend to dismiss the Bible at the outset.  In addition, it's very difficult to know if I'm involved in a genuine conversation most of the time.  Typically, I run into more rhetorical dismissive comments than actual solicitations for additional information or genuine interest.  But I'll try to keep your admonition in mind.

If you read through John 20, particularly the part where Jesus deals with Thomas, you'll see that Christ clearly declares belief on the basis of faith in God / Christ rather than having constantly prove himself to mankind.  We've had enough evidence put before us, and Thomas in particular had been present during the life of Christ.  There was no reason for his level of skepticism beyond his sin and rebellion against God, which you can reference in the first couple of chapters of the book of Romans.

[gomtuu77]

Actually, yes it is.

See, this is why people hate christians. You could have gone on to bible gateway and found the passage and verse and quoted it here or just gave the reference, but you didn't. You just expect us to take us at your word for no other reason than you had said it. This show that faith is actually pride.

It's like when he asserted that morality comes from god but then claimed it wasn't an assertion.

Typical, carbon copies.

I don't recall the specifics, but I wasn't intending to deny that it was an assertion of sorts.  What I was denying was that it was meant to be taken as an argument in any sense.  It was a statement of what I believed on that topic, not the reasons for which I believe it.  My apologies if it upset you so much that you're still seething about it days later.

[gomtuu77]

Why does God need a tree to shed tears?  You want tears from God?  How about rain?  Why not say raindrops are God's tears?  But aphid doo doo falling off a tree?  That's downright embarrassing!  Hey people, you wouldn't go out of your way to walk in doo doo.  For goodness sake, don't stand under it.  I wonder how the arborist feels?  Here he is explaining what's happening, and people are just ignoring him.  "No, no.  Those are God's tears.  God is crying because he's sad."  Doesn't anyone concern themselves with why God is sad?  It seems like it could be really important, but no one seems to care about that part  It's a nice display of belief, but it seems like just half of a thought, like part of their brains are missing.

The most obvious answer is that God is not a material being in the sense you seem to be indicating.  I think it's a dreadful display of belief, but it happens all the time.

[hrdlr110]

Do you think I'm saying that Christ didn't attest to His status with miracles or signs & wonders?  That's not what I'm saying at all.  I'm saying that what is actually taught in scripture is what Christ made clear in Matthew 12 & John 20.  It's only an evil and adulterous generation that are always looking for a sign, and it's far better to believe God on the basis of what He declares rather than His always having to give you a sign.  Where is the trust (i.e. faith) if God is constantly having to reconfirm in your own mind, His identity?  We already have enough light (i.e. evidence) of His obvious reality, no matter how hard some of us work to deny or refuse to acknowledge it by way of every kind of rationalization and 'just so' story.  That's what I'm talking about.  Groups that constantly promote miracles and signs & wonders, which are typically more superstition than reality, in order to prey on people's emotions, are that evil and adulterous generation...much like the Pharisees of old.

At least it sounds like you're in the same camp as us atheists on one point then. That god has never cured a cancer or saved anyone from any illness whatsoever, as this would be considered a sign eh? And you don't believe in signs?

[hrdlr110]

Or you just don't look for them is it? But wouldn't you look if you thought they existed?

[gomtuu77]

Disagree? None that I'm aware of.

I assumed as much. It's fascinating how there can be 2 billion christians, each of them a completely different person, with different values, different morals, different opinions, different life styles, and there isn't a single one amongst them who feels they disagree with anything god says. Even though they do totally contradicationary things and all of them consider most other people who claim to believe in the same god to be wrong about what that god thinks on every point where that person disagrees with their personal opinion.

Makes you wonder: do you believe in what is right because god says so, or does god say so because you believe it is right?

Is that something like everyone believing in the same thing, science, but their being competing theories about how to explain and account for all of the things we see in the world?

The difficulty you're identifying has to do with the continuum of understanding on which all human beings, including Christians, exist.  Some people have appropriate understandings of Christianity, and some people have inappropriate understandings of Christianity.  Other people merely have limited or incomplete understandings of Christianity, while others have more complete or more comprehensive understandings. And then of course, you have the regenerate and the unregenerate Church, which is to say that you have a lot of people that call themselves Christians, for any number of reasons (e.g. social reasons, superstitious reasons, reasons of tradition, etc...), and then you have genuine Christians who have genuinely given their life to Christ and are attempting to follow Him as best they can.  All of these factors combine to present you with the confused picture that you're delineating.

I would say to you, what I've said to others.  If you want to come to appropriate judgments about Christianity or any other religion, focus on what their sacred scripture actually teaches, taking into account the historic developed doctrines over time, and the example of its founder(s).  The mixed behavior of its professed followers will always leave you scratching your head.

[gomtuu77]

Do you think I'm saying that Christ didn't attest to His status with miracles or signs & wonders?  That's not what I'm saying at all.  I'm saying that what is actually taught in scripture is what Christ made clear in Matthew 12 & John 20.  It's only an evil and adulterous generation that are always looking for a sign, and it's far better to believe God on the basis of what He declares rather than His always having to give you a sign.  Where is the trust (i.e. faith) if God is constantly having to reconfirm in your own mind, His identity?  We already have enough light (i.e. evidence) of His obvious reality, no matter how hard some of us work to deny or refuse to acknowledge it by way of every kind of rationalization and 'just so' story.  That's what I'm talking about.  Groups that constantly promote miracles and signs & wonders, which are typically more superstition than reality, in order to prey on people's emotions, are that evil and adulterous generation...much like the Pharisees of old.

At least it sounds like you're in the same camp as us atheists on one point then. That god has never cured a cancer or saved anyone from any illness whatsoever, as this would be considered a sign eh? And you don't believe in signs?

How could you possibly have gotten that from what I said?  I believe the Bible teaches the superiority of believing God without signs and wonders, but I also believe it is clear the Christ attested to His divinity and authority.  In short, he provided evidence for the people of His day, and record of that evidence has been preserved for us, a long with a vast array of information we've been able to establish with our own educational advancement.  But the conclusions you were able to draw from my words are truly mystifying.