Right! They're Smartter Than atheists.

[gomtuu77]

In the most basic sense, the difference between miracles and magic is the difference between nonfiction and fiction. And as I've explained in other places, the idea of a miracle accomplishing the impossible is really a misnomer.

No, it isn't. Jesus walked on water. This is impossible. It cannot be done. But we are told that he did it. If that is not a miracle, what is? So, too, would be instantaneously healing someone who was dying, or raising a dead person to life.

RESPONSE: – It's only impossible for Jesus Christ, if you are determined to ascribe human limitations to Him.  But again, if you are going to do that, then there would never be any way to give an answer to your question.  If you want an answer, then for the sake of the discussion, you have to allow yourself to consider what the actual possibilities would be in the context of a reality and world where God did actually exist.  If a being of such vast power were an extant feature of reality, then Christ's ability to walk on water, while impossible for ordinary human beings, would not necessarily be impossible for Him at all.  

In addition, the same comments you make about Christ walking on water could have been said about human beings being able to travel in controlled flight at 30,000 feet above the Earth's surface just a few hundred years ago.  Indeed, if you went back far enough, it's likely that such a thing wouldn't even have been conceivable to the ordinary human being.  Because it was impossible for them at the time, didn't mean that it was a genuine impossibility in reality.  This same thing would apply to the ability to instantly heal human bodies that He'd designed and created as well.  

Obviously, God's power to enable someone to walk on water or heal a human body He designed and created is orders of magnitude beyond the simple and crude technological development of mankind, but the principle is still applicable.  The only way it is actually impossible is if either God doesn't exist at all, or you are so determined to deny His existence that you inappropriately saddle Him with human limitations that do not and would not exist for a being of His kind.  That will allow you to neatly rationalize something like the explanation I gave away.

But in terms of theological understandings over time, virtually all theologians have understood God's all-powerfulness (i.e. omnipotence) to refer to an ability to do all things that power can accomplish without violating His own nature or character.

God can do anything that God can do. Got it.

RESPONSE: – He can do anything power can accomplish that does not violate His own nature or character, but He is limited to His own nature.
 

Magic is something of a different sort entirely. Most typically, it is a falsehood based on some level of deceit. In other words, the things claimed to be done are not done in reality.

Well, that would be a miracle, as well, since nobody has REALLY ever done one. All the ones you read about are just stories from far away and long ago. This is very convenient, as there is no way anyone can go back in time and check up on it. However, based on the complete lack of either miracles OR magic in today's times, it is reasonable to assume that they never happened in ancient times, either, and the stories you read are just fables to impress the gullible.

RESPONSE: – So you didn't really want to know the difference between Magic and a Miracle?  You're actually not interested in what the answer is?  There is no way that people can go back to check on all kinds of events that happened in the past that we claim to know and assume are true.  It doesn't follow that because you can't go back and check on, in detail, the events of history, that they did not occur.  This is an anti-historical and highly irrational position.  The claim you make would make a great deal of human history completely disappear as historical events.  Since it's not an example of sound reasoning, I'll attempt to move forward as if the history of mankind still exists in some manner.

I'm curious though.  If all you wanted to do was deny and gainsay, why waste time asking the question in the first place?

Pharoah's magicians were able to accomplish certain things, but in the end, they proved to be mere pretenders. To the extent that their snakes were real, they were accomplishing their task by way of a lesser power that could not match or overcome the miraculous power of the one true God.

Who cares how they did it, or what powers they invoked? They still did it--but then, we know that it never really happened at all, don't we? It is merely a once-upon-a-time story for children and easily-duped adults.

RESPONSE: – I thought you did, or you wouldn't have asked the question.  Obviously, you were being deceitful at the time and didn't care about or want an actual answer.  Beyond that, I certainly care, as do many millions across the planet.  No, we don't "KNOW" it didn't happen.  That's what you say and believe, but you have no way of knowing that.  I at least have a long self-supporting record of events, the salient details of which, can only be explained by the fact of God's existence and the possibility of miracles.  I'm sure you hope that it was merely a one-upon-a-time story for children and easily-duped adults, as that would certainly help you sleep better at night.  Unfortunately for the truly self-duped, they will only find out when the veil is lifted and the pretensions and denials are swept away by the presence of God and the meting out of justice.


 

Regarding what you term "bullshittery", I can only say this. God can choose to say "No" or to not answer a particular prayer, as he's done in my life many times. I'm not aware of that response or non-response as having been designed by me or anyone else to make God look any particular way.

You pray for something to happen, it doesn't happen--that is called prayer not being answered. It happens all the time. That is why we can never get a Christian to go into a cancer ward and pray for all the sick patients to be instantly made well. They know they will be made to look like fools when nothing at all happens. It is the reason why a Christian will claim God's intervention when they pray for a new job and get hired the next week, but have nothing much to say when they pray for children to be protected and instead they starve to death by the millions.

RESPONSE: – The reason why you can't get Christians to do that is because you possess a very basic misunderstanding about God.  God is not a cosmic bellhop at our beck and call.  He is God.  There are times when prayers are answered, and there are other times when they are not.  We do not control God's will in the way that you assume, but that does not mean that He does not sometimes choose to move and act on our behalf.  I have seen Christians healed of stage 4 cancer, and I've seen others die while they were still young and had little children to care for.  You can deny the existence of the first and relish the existence of the second, but it won't change the facts of reality.  God places a premium on our free choices, so it is unlikely that you will see Him put on such a display so as to require genuine madness and insanity, in order to deny His active presence.  In other words, it's doubtful He's going to spend time making Himself so painfully obvious to those that hate Him that they would be rationally compelled against their will to believe in Him.  Why?  Because they hate Him, and it is still not likely that they would all choose to bend their knee to Him amidst their great hatred.  Instead, He gives us enough light to know and the grace to move forward in that knowledge and find life in Jesus Christ.  I'm sorry that you're hostile to that at this point in your life.  Continue to watch the events of the world though.  It won't be that many more years before you will see it all play out before you.

This is also false, for there is no human being that can help himself.

A ridiculous statement that can be proven to be a lie by the number of people who DO, in fact, help themselves. You are full of shit for even thinking such stupidity! It is nothing more than a lie perpetuated by ministers and priests and other assorted church bigwigs who have a vested interest in keeping you feeling helpless, weak, and worthless. The fact is that, while I see plenty of people helping themselves and each other, I have never once seen God help anyone. Never have I seen God come down from the sky-dome, like he used to in Old Testament times, to intervene personally on human behalf. Never have I seen or heard of food raining down from the sky to feed starving children, as we read about the manna incident in the OT; and I have never heard of Jesus magically causing food to multiply so that everyone gets to eat. These things happen only in STORIES, never in real life. The only ones helping people are other people, not magic fantasy rainbow-promise entities that you've never actually seen, touched, or talked to.

RESPONSE: – To say that no human being can help himself, is not to say that we can do nothing to help ourselves in this temporal world.  I'm speaking of the more important thing, our eternal fate.  If you consider for a moment that you are an eternal soul that will live on after this life, then you may realize that your 70+ years on the planet will be the equivalent of a nano-second in the grand scheme of things.  If you've not dealt with this aspect of reality, and it turns out to be true; you will have freely chosen to reject and therefore, be rejected by God forever.  You cannot help yourself.  It's only by way of God's offer of rescue and mercy through Jesus Christ that you or any other human being can be helped.  But as you well know, virtually no one here in this forum will take an interest.  They are too heavily invested in their perception of my stupidity, my having somehow been brainwashed, and in maintaining their freedom to live strictly by the dictates of their own will rather than that of their Creator.  You say that you've never seen God help anyone, but I will tell you that He's helped me a great deal.  You can deny the reality of my statement, but I know that what I am saying is true.  I have been helped by God in my own life, far more than I deserve, and I know many many others who would declare the exact same thing.  Also, I might point out that it is probably difficult to observe God helping anyone when you spend your time flatly denying any reality to His existence, His acts in our history, and the testimony of those who know Him today.  With that kind of attitude, I cannot imagine you even allowing yourself to see God doing anything positive.  To do so would completely destroy the massive psychological and intellectual investments you have made in order to maintain your distance and alienation from God.  I hope one day you'll change your mind, but I'm also a realist. The path do destruction is quite wide, and that to eternal life is exceedingly narrow among human beings.  The human heart is desperately wicked, and we love the deeds we do.

[gomtuu77]

The answer to that question is part of the 8 or so years you have to put in to learn enough to understand it.

I'm saying that when you've completed a course of study that includes biochemistry, neurobiology and magnetic resonance, you won't have to ask the question because you'll understand the process well enough to understand that the question is meaningless.

Hahaha!!! :rollin:

WHAT A COMPLETE DODGE OF THE QUESTION!!!

Get 8 years of education and the very simple question will be answered huh?  Hahaha!!!

 =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>

I know why you don't want to answer.  Don't worry.  You might consider it though.  Laws of logic still apply to reality, even in science.  Hahahaha!!!
 =D>
 :rollin:
 =D>
 :rollin:
 =D>

It means that the operators know what the readings mean.  Uncalibrated, the readings are useless.  No metric-type instrument is worth anything without calibration.

I think this is as close as you're going to get.  Calibration means that at least two different things have to correlate or correspond, which also means they aren't identical.  In short, the hardware or the interface isn't the image or the emotion.  They ontologically different, and absent the so-called "calibration" they would have no way to make associations.  So the physical effects or manifestations can be detected, as well as where the mechanism is active during the direct interface, but not the immaterial thing itself.

How funny...it took all of that nonsense just to get that kind of answer.  I'd laugh if I had anymore energy.

[Sargon The Grape]

Hahaha! :rollin:
WHAT A COMPLETE DODGE OF THE QUESTION!!!

Get 8 years of education and the very simple question will answered huh?  Hahaha!!!

 =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>

I know why you don't want to answer.  Don't worry.  You might consider it though.  Laws of logic still apply to reality, even in science.  Hahahaha!!!
 =D>
 :rollin:
 =D>
 :rollin:
 =D>

I love how you focused on the literal meaning of his statement so much, you didn't notice that he was calling you an idiot.

I'll let you ruminate on that until you get it.

[gomtuu77]

Hahaha! :rollin:
WHAT A COMPLETE DODGE OF THE QUESTION!!!

Get 8 years of education and the very simple question will answered huh?  Hahaha!!!

 =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>

I know why you don't want to answer.  Don't worry.  You might consider it though.  Laws of logic still apply to reality, even in science.  Hahahaha!!!
 =D>
 :rollin:
 =D>
 :rollin:
 =D>

I love how you focused on the literal meaning of his statement so much, you didn't notice that he was calling you an idiot.

I'll let you ruminate on that until you get it.

No, I noticed, but he's done that since the first time we ever interacted.  At some point someone constantly assuming and calling you an idiot in every single reply becomes a lot like white noise.

[Sargon The Grape]

Hahaha! :rollin:
WHAT A COMPLETE DODGE OF THE QUESTION!!!

Get 8 years of education and the very simple question will answered huh?  Hahaha!!!

 =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>  :rollin:  =D>

I know why you don't want to answer.  Don't worry.  You might consider it though.  Laws of logic still apply to reality, even in science.  Hahahaha!!!
 =D>
 :rollin:
 =D>
 :rollin:
 =D>

I love how you focused on the literal meaning of his statement so much, you didn't notice that he was calling you an idiot.

I'll let you ruminate on that until you get it.

No, I noticed, but he's done that since the first time we ever interacted.  At some point someone constantly assuming and calling you an idiot in every single reply becomes a lot like white noise.

At some point, getting bombarded by theists thinking they know what they're talking about becomes a lot like white noise. Perhaps when you figure this out you will understand the response you get from people like Colanth.

[GalacticBusDriver]

WHAT A COMPLETE DODGE OF THE QUESTION!!!

Damn! Gotta get another irony meter. That's the third one this week.

gomtuu, you sir, are an ass! Please, don't stop. The hilarity is too good.

[Colanth]

In the most basic sense, the difference between miracles and magic is the difference between nonfiction and fiction. And as I've explained in other places, the idea of a miracle accomplishing the impossible is really a misnomer.

No, it isn't. Jesus walked on water. This is impossible. It cannot be done. But we are told that he did it. If that is not a miracle, what is? So, too, would be instantaneously healing someone who was dying, or raising a dead person to life.

RESPONSE: – It's only impossible for Jesus Christ, if you are determined to ascribe human limitations to Him.

No, just the limitations of the laws of physics, which every human body is subject to.

But again, if you are going to do that, then there would never be any way to give an answer to your question.

Sure there would - evidence.  Which you steadfastly refuse to present.  For ANY of your assertions.

If you want an answer, then for the sake of the discussion, you have to allow yourself to consider what the actual possibilities would be in the context of a reality and world where God did actually exist.

A reality in which the laws of physics apply?  No one can walk on water.  A world in which someone can walk on water?  The laws of physics don't apply.

Take your choice - there's no middle ground unless you resort to special pleading, which would mean that you lose the argument.  (It amounts to an argument of "it's so because I say it's so", and that's not acceptable in a rational discussion.)

If a being of such vast power

Vast power can't change the laws of physics.  A "being of vast power" would still be subject to them.  If you're positing a being that can violate the laws of physics, post objective evidence that such a being objectively exists.  (Oh, we've been here before, haven't we?  What's your excuse going to be this time?)

[Colanth]

The answer to that question is part of the 8 or so years you have to put in to learn enough to understand it.

I'm saying that when you've completed a course of study that includes biochemistry, neurobiology and magnetic resonance, you won't have to ask the question because you'll understand the process well enough to understand that the question is meaningless.

Hahaha!!! :rollin:

WHAT A COMPLETE DODGE OF THE QUESTION!!!

Says the poster who still refuses to post objective evidence of the god that he claims objectively exists.

If you're not well-educated to understand the explanation, it's not a dodge, it's a limitation on your part.  Don't blame me for YOUR refusal to get an education.

[Colanth]

WHAT A COMPLETE DODGE OF THE QUESTION!!!

Damn! Gotta get another irony meter. That's the third one this week.

Reminds me of Usenet.

[Plu]

In addition, the same comments you make about Christ walking on water could have been said about human beings being able to travel in controlled flight at 30,000 feet above the Earth's surface just a few hundred years ago. Indeed, if you went back far enough, it's likely that such a thing wouldn't even have been conceivable to the ordinary human being. Because it was impossible for them at the time, didn't mean that it was a genuine impossibility in reality. This same thing would apply to the ability to instantly heal human bodies that He'd designed and created as well.

And yet all any of us that long ago would've asked was "show me how it's done" and as soon as someone succeeded, we've believe.

Show me how jesus walked on water, and I'll believe it. But don't give me that "you have to believe for it to make sense" bullshit, because that can be used to believe anything under the sun.

[frozenframe]

I agree with Plu, in those times all stories were spread by word of mouth so local myths were born. It was also a time when most people couldn't read or write. The reasonable thing to do is to question religion and not blindly follow the herd

[frosty]

People believe whatever they want to believe to comfort themselves about the unknown. When someone such as the guy you are all arguing with attempts to use the themes of logic, pragmatism and science to further give validity to his outdated beliefs, it is I think a waste of time considering even if he eventually stops replying he will always spitefully believe he is right and you all are wrong. Humans are spiteful and vindictive by nature and if a guy has to sign up to an atheist forum to convince himself and others his beliefs are accurate then he is obviously one hard headed stubborn dude.

I agree with Plu, in those times all stories were spread by word of mouth so local myths were born. It was also a time when most people couldn't read or write. The reasonable thing to do is to question religion and not blindly follow the herd

What pains me is that there are still people that use computers, running water, electricity, utilities, super markets, modern medicine, and a vast plethora of modern tools that make life so much better for the average human. And then, those same people that use such things then come on here and tell us how we are wrong for wanting to abide by non-religious processes for problem solving, scientific discovery, etc. It is frustrating when I see such things being typed, but then I've always known that if religious fundamentalists live in 2013 and enjoy all the modern tools we do, but then they are still condemning other people for not "following god", then they've already lost anyways. That's why religious loons will forever be defeated.

[Colanth]

People believe whatever they want to believe to comfort themselves about the unknown. When someone such as the guy you are all arguing with attempts to use the themes of logic, pragmatism and science to further give validity to his outdated beliefs, it is I think a waste of time considering even if he eventually stops replying he will always spitefully believe he is right and you all are wrong. Humans are spiteful and vindictive by nature and if a guy has to sign up to an atheist forum to convince himself and others his beliefs are accurate then he is obviously one hard headed stubborn dude.

But they can be fun to play with while they last.

Very few of us actually try to convince people like that to think rationally.

I agree with Plu, in those times all stories were spread by word of mouth so local myths were born. It was also a time when most people couldn't read or write. The reasonable thing to do is to question religion and not blindly follow the herd

What pains me is that there are still people that use computers, running water, electricity, utilities, super markets, modern medicine, and a vast plethora of modern tools that make life so much better for the average human. And then, those same people that use such things then come on here and tell us how we are wrong for wanting to abide by non-religious processes for problem solving, scientific discovery, etc.

We see them all the time.  And we make the same comment you have - that if they think science is bad, why are they using a computer that uses principles discovered by science?  Again, it's fun to play with them like that - but we aren't suffering from the delusion that we'll deconvert them from theism.

[ApostateLois]

It's only impossible for Jesus Christ, if you are determined to ascribe human limitations to Him. But again, if you are going to do that, then there would never be any way to give an answer to your question. If you want an answer, then for the sake of the discussion, you have to allow yourself to consider what the actual possibilities would be in the context of a reality and world where God did actually exist. If a being of such vast power were an extant feature of reality, then Christ's ability to walk on water, while impossible for ordinary human beings, would not necessarily be impossible for Him at all.

Look, dude, the Bible tells us all kinds of fairy tales about people doing impossible things with the power of God, and they called these miracles.  You can pick the word apart as much as you like and claim it means something other than what is shown in the Bible, or it applies only to God or Jesus or whatever you are trying to say, but it still boils down to simply being another word for "magic." You say the right words to the right deity and hey presto! You get water from a rock, or the Red Sea parts, or food rains down from the sky, or you can turn water into wine. It is no different than Harry Potter saying the right incantation in the correct manner to make something levitate. And in both cases, you can't find examples from real life, but only in stories. I know you think there is a huge difference, but that's only because you are a believer in a particular religion. For those of us on the outside, it all looks the same.

In addition, the same comments you make about Christ walking on water could have been said about human beings being able to travel in controlled flight at 30,000 feet above the Earth's surface just a few hundred years ago.

WRONG. Nobody has ever walked on water in real life, and they never will, because there is no way physics will allow it. The equivalent would be, not a human being flying in the sky using a machine made by scientific ingenuity, but a human being flying in the sky without the aid of any machines simply by having faith in God.

Because it was impossible for them at the time, didn't mean that it was a genuine impossibility in reality. This same thing would apply to the ability to instantly heal human bodies that He'd designed and created as well.

Nobody has ever healed a sick person by faith in God. Go ahead, try it. Let us know how it goes for you.

 

The only way it is actually impossible is if either God doesn't exist at all, or you are so determined to deny His existence that you inappropriately saddle Him with human limitations that do not and would not exist for a being of His kind. That will allow you to neatly rationalize something like the explanation I gave away.

 Oh, honeybun, you're so confused, aren't you? AGAIN, I have to reiterate that miracles only happen in fables and myths. They do not happen in real life. All those crying statues of the Virgin Mary, the images of Jesus appearing in trees, the claims of faith healings, the stories in the Bible....not real, my dear. DEAD PEOPLE STAY DEAD. They don't walk around after three days  of rotting in a tomb.
 
 

RESPONSE: – He can do anything power can accomplish that does not violate His own nature or character, but He is limited to His own nature.

 Yeah, that's what I said.
 
 

The reason why you can't get Christians to do that is because you possess a very basic misunderstanding about God. God is not a cosmic bellhop at our beck and call.

  The Bible indicates otherwise. There are plenty of examples of people calling on God and God responds like a personal genie with three wishes to grant. Christians pray all the time for everything from a better job or a new car, to peace in the Middle East. BILLIONS of prayers are offered up, day by day, hour by hour, to a God whom every single Christian firmly believes will respond. So, yes, God IS your very own cosmic bellhop, whether you admit it or not. If you believed otherwise, you'd stop asking him to do stuff for you.
 
   

To say that no human being can help himself, is not to say that we can do nothing to help ourselves in this temporal world. I'm speaking of the more important thing, our eternal fate.

   Well, since nobody seems to agree on what that is--indicating that nobody really knows--it seems more logical to not worry about it, as it will take care of itself.

[Colanth]

It is no different than Harry Potter saying the right incantation in the correct manner to make something levitate.

Speaking of which, //http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/205500/these-arizona-teenagers-are-gonna-exorcise-britain-of-all-the-evil-harry-potter-demons/.  Real spells?  From real witchcraft books?  And I think these morons really believe this shit.