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critics of islam.

Started by AtheTurk, August 20, 2013, 04:00:26 PM

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phxSL

I think before someone criticize Islam for its vile nature, s/he should read Quran, at least a part (its painful) and dig a little into their history. After that you`ll be able to form your own ideas rather than subscribing to someone else's ideology, without looking into the source.

In my opinion, else it is on par with believing religion itself otherwise.
[size=150]"The worthwhile problems are the ones you can really solve or help solve, the ones you can really contribute something to. ... No problem is too small or too trivial if we can really do something about it."[/size]
Richard P. Feynman

LikelyToBreak

I agree with frosty.  

I listened to these not too long ago: //http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvvx-1AGfPc&list=PL7B9B868D0D0F61F5

Listening to stuff is often easier for me than reading, because I can do other things while I listen.  Maybe some of you guys also find it easier to listen to something than finding time to actually read things.  Not the best way to learn, IMO, but better than learning nothing while doing mundane chores.

As phxSL suggested, I did try to read the Koran a couple of times.  It hurt too much and made no sense to me whatsoever.  Praise Allah and may peace be upon Mohammad, like every other paragraph.  Just cut my head off if I have to read that crap all the time.

frosty

Well, I could imagine that, as I've seen before, certain dedicated Muslim believers would be a bit offended at me and Shiranu talking about how Muhammad gained power for himself. But it really doesn't matter if they get offended, if they get offended then it is simply proving our point more. There are a plethora of ways to manipulate humans on a systematic level; religion is among the most powerful of ways to do that.

Muhammad was a "boss", as the kids these days like to say.

Colanth

Quote from: "drunkenshoe"I am all ears to learn what is so unique about this 7th century warlord among all countless of others.
What's unique is that his ideas lasted until today.  The ideas of the other people who claimed to speak for the gods haven't.  (Unique only means "the only one of its kind", and Islam is if we're limiting ourselves to the 7th century Middle East.)
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

frosty

I have attempted to make my point crystal clear. I will refer you to this:

Quote from: "frosty"
Quote from: "Shiranu"I respect Mohammad for the power he created for himself. Kinda like Stalin and Hitler; disgusting people, but you cant argue that they didn't know how to maneuver their way to the top.

Yeah, I get your point, and I actually agree. Charismatic, strong, goal-minded leaders have manipulated the masses all throughout history. Some use religion, others use nationalism, others use tribal/sectarian/ethnic sentiments, but in the end of the day it's about creating a power structure with the leaders at the top and the subservient masses blindly following the leader's orders at the bottom.

Muhammad was a boss for the reasons ascribed above. He went from being an illiterate nobody in the desert to commanding an army that converted a large portion of the world population to his way of thinking. Muhammad is part of a long list of leaders that have used the appeal of their ideology to build an empire and gain power.

Graceless

The unfortunate thing about using a religion as a tool is that it has a tendency to gain a life of its own.

Look at L. Ron Hubbard's Scientology: he originally founded it as a way to get rich. Decades after his death, it continues to grow and spread misery, fleecing the gullible out of their savings and holding their families hostage while skirting the law in innumerable ways. If anything, it has become even crazier after losing its founder.

Of course, if you're a charismatic asshole who wants power and doesn't give a damn about human suffering, then go ahead and found a cult.  That, or enter the GOP primaries.  :wink:
My goals: Love, tolerate, and understand.

Colanth

Interesting question - can the GOP now be considered a cult?  Or is that just the tea party part of the GOP?
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Colanth

Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
Quote from: "Colanth"What's unique is that his ideas lasted until today.

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said people from Christian cultures tend to percieve Muhammed somehow like Jesus. Now, I don't mean you see two character the same with this. I mean you see their roles, occurances and also their divine characters attributed to this as the same in outcome.
I've actually never heard a "westerner" with this viewpoint.  At most, it's Jesus who, even though he had a man's body, was actually God, while Mohammed was just a man.

QuoteWell we know Jesus is a mythical character and we know its pagan roots, also most of the iconotropc myth(s) and characters that ended to create him and Christianity.
We do - Christians tend to run from "Jesus is most likely based on a real person" to "Jesus was God come to earth as a man".

QuoteWe know that Konstantin accepted Christianity as an official religion, because he didn't have any other choice.
I don't know whether "accepted" is the right word.  According to what we're deciphering from his column, he pretty much invented the religion that exists today.  What was it before?  We don't know, but I strongly suspect it was just a sect (or a lot of different sects) of Judaism.

QuoteMuhammed is just a successful warlord and a politician who managed to used its environment and situation to build a unified system. But what we see from muslims today, what they 'believe' or the 'sacred' they keep their faith in any scale, is something constructed over a thousand years. Creating its own myth on the way like every other religion. This is why they are so divided and have so many different sects. You cannot find that much of conflicting difference in Christianity, can you?
Huh?  There are over 30,000 different sects of Christianity, some even accused, by almost all the rest, of not even being Christianity.  MANY wars were fought in Europe over what Christianity actually is.  Even at the very beginning, at Nicaea in 325 CE, there was fighting over whether Christianity should be Arianist (the son is subordinate to the father), Unitarian or Trinitarian.  And the conflict has never stopped, it's just changed what they're fighting about.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Colanth

Quote from: "drunkenshoe"
Quote from: "Colanth"Huh?  There are over 30,000 different sects of Christianity, some even accused, by almost all the rest, of not even being Christianity.  MANY wars were fought in Europe over what Christianity actually is.  Even at the very beginning, at Nicaea in 325 CE, there was fighting over whether Christianity should be Arianist (the son is subordinate to the father), Unitarian or Trinitarian.  And the conflict has never stopped, it's just changed what they're fighting about.

Yes I am aware of that. Are they in war now, Colanth?
Actual physical shooting war, the way various sects of Islam are?  Not any more.  But they were until pretty recently (from an historical viewpoint).

QuoteNicaea is in Turkiye. We've have been calling it ?znik for the last 700 years.
Yes, I couldn't think of the Turkish name when I typed the post, and I was too lazy to look it up.

QuoteAnd what happened to the rest of my post? The part where the very obvious difference between two religions and their head actors role in it? :roll:
No argument about any of the rest.  I only commented on the parts I didn't completely agree with.  (You'd get bored with line after line of "yes, I agree", wouldn't you?)
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

Colanth

Quote from: "drunkenshoe"Why would you write the Turkish name, it's unnecessary.
For the same reason I usually don't call Istanbul Constantinople.  In this case I probably would have said "Iznik (Nicaea)".
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.

AtheTurk

not nicaea,it's
is Nikéa

 is Nikomídi

stin Kô

Colanth

How you spell it depends on what language you speak.  You say Turkiye, I say Turkey.
Afflicting the comfortable for 70 years.
Science builds skyscrapers, faith flies planes into them.