Religious fundamentalism as mental illness

[SGOS]

stromboli wrote:

What, rational thinking in high school? Are you serious? What next, teaching them how to do their taxes or run a balanced budget? :shock:

Yeah, I guess your right.  Teaching useful things is just too much to ask.  :(

SGOS wrote in part:

I actually remember teachers as early as the middle grades diverging from the usual lesson plans and devoting a small amount of time to critical thinking.

Its' been a long time since I went to school, but I don't remember any of my teachers deviating much from their lesson plans.  I do remember teachers kind of getting upset that they couldn't answer some questions though.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the only real logic taught in high schools, is in geometry class.  Which isn't a required subject.

Geometry was the biggy, but in high school I remember a couple of forays into critical thinking in non math classes.  I don't remember them as well as the first exposure I got, however.  My high school was in the same town as my elementary school.  It was an odd neighborhood composed mostly of recent immigrants from Czech Republic that settled there during WWII.  I'm not Czech, but almost all of my friends were.  I can't say for sure, having experienced no other K-12 schooling.  The schools probably did not reflect mainstream USA.  I can't say there is anything special about the Czechs.  Maybe the ones who immigrated there had all the bullshit they could take from the Nazi's and the Russians.  I don't know.  I just don't know.

[stromboli]

I had an instructor in high school math in my senior year (I failed Algebra 2nd year because of extended illness) who taught basic math and pre-algebra. He was a tax examiner on the side. We got done with the curriculum early, and he spent the last week teaching us how to do basic taxes. That 4 days of education has proven to be the most useful thing I learned in high school.

[Colanth]

What next, teaching them how to do their taxes or run a balanced budget?  :shock:

One step at a time, Strom. Let's teach them to make change from the register at McDonald's before we worry about taxes.

Back when I was in school (and we hadn't yet invented dinosaurs), we were taught that in 3rd grade, as part of arithmetic.  And it's about as automatic now as swallowing when I have liquid in my mouth - it's almost a reflex, something I do without thinking about.

I'd be shocked that they don't teach it these days, if not for the fact that I've been told many, many times that some clerk couldn't make change from what I handed him or her because (and this is with the register drawer already open) "the register is broken".  When I've pointed out that the drawer is open, and that they can just count out the change, I've gotten responses that boil down to "but how can I know how much change to give you?"

Is it any wonder that people still believe in miracles and that prayer works?  "Education" these days seems to be back to the standards of what we taught village kids in the 800s - nothing but Bible.

[Colanth]

I've said for decades that religion is a mental disease, and religious fundamentalism is just an extreme case of it.

I wouldn't advocate the forced "curing" of theists, fundies or otherwise, but society does have a right to protect itself against a clear and present danger.  So Christian Science should be told that they can believe whatever they like, but their kids MUST receive medical attention - not just for life-threatening illness, but inoculations and well-baby care too, as sick people affect us all.

Those who think that global warming isn't real, or that God will protect us, are free to think so, but they're not free to kill the rest of us by influencing the passing of laws that exacerbate the problem.

Things like that go further than mental illness or religion, they affect us all, so we have the right to make sure that they don't affect us adversely.  The Constitution doesn't give you the right to kill someone if that's the end result of your "free exercise thereof".  If it does, my religion says that I should kill everyone threatening the lives of my fellow people.

[mykcob4]

I've said for decades that religion is a mental disease, and religious fundamentalism is just an extreme case of it.

I wouldn't advocate the forced "curing" of theists, fundies or otherwise, but society does have a right to protect itself against a clear and present danger.  So Christian Science should be told that they can believe whatever they like, but their kids MUST receive medical attention - not just for life-threatening illness, but inoculations and well-baby care too, as sick people affect us all.

Those who think that global warming isn't real, or that God will protect us, are free to think so, but they're not free to kill the rest of us by influencing the passing of laws that exacerbate the problem.

Things like that go further than mental illness or religion, they affect us all, so we have the right to make sure that they don't affect us adversely.  The Constitution doesn't give you the right to kill someone if that's the end result of your "free exercise thereof".  If it does, my religion says that I should kill everyone threatening the lives of my fellow people.

Thank you for bringing this thread BACK to the OP issue. For cryin' out loud we got off target. "100 right, 200 Down, now fire for effect!"

[PickelledEggs]

I read something a while back about this... Good info

[ZachyFTW]

There is no cure for being an idiot. If there was I imagine it would turn out like the cancer cure in "I am Legend"

[PopeyesPappy]

Religious fundamentalism is the result of low self esteem and lack of self worth in a mediocre environment. Its sort of like the neo-confederate pride people in the American South. They suffer from low self esteem and imagine a Yankee of the mind who is the devil. This helps compensate for their overall poor-self image, which is also entirely in their imagination. In fact, they are their own worst enemies, far worse than the Yankee or the Devil.

So Jan do you have anything to back up this hypothesis, or is it something you just came up with on your own?

[Solitary]

I have a wild ass idea.  Instead of trying to get radicals into some sort of psychological program, why not just teach a little psychology in high school.  Being sure to cover propaganda and brainwashing.  Preventive medicine as it were.  I realize, it would be an uphill battle to get such classes into the curriculum, but if they could get these classes through the benefit to society would be great.  

Imagine a world where those needing psychological help knew they needed it and then had access to it.  They could begin treatment before they ended up in the justice system or in a hospital.  It could lower the suicide rate.  People would live better lives by having an a small understanding of why people are doing what they are doing.

Oh well, just a pipe dream.  The radicals and others with private agendas would never allow such a thing.   :(

That assumes the opinions of psychologists are facts, and that they are not mere opinions. And talk therapy may help a person feel good by getting a person to know themselves better, but it has never cured a mental illness, unless you think not knowing yourself is a mental illness.  Solitary

[mykcob4]

I have a wild ass idea.  Instead of trying to get radicals into some sort of psychological program, why not just teach a little psychology in high school.  Being sure to cover propaganda and brainwashing.  Preventive medicine as it were.  I realize, it would be an uphill battle to get such classes into the curriculum, but if they could get these classes through the benefit to society would be great.  

Imagine a world where those needing psychological help knew they needed it and then had access to it.  They could begin treatment before they ended up in the justice system or in a hospital.  It could lower the suicide rate.  People would live better lives by having an a small understanding of why people are doing what they are doing.

Oh well, just a pipe dream.  The radicals and others with private agendas would never allow such a thing.   :(

That assumes the opinions of psychologists are facts, and that they are not mere opinions. And talk therapy may help a person feel good by getting a person to know themselves better, but it has never cured a mental illness, unless you think not knowing yourself is a mental illness.  Solitary

I have to take acception to that. I know for a fact that that counseling has helped a great many people. Take PTSD. At the VA hospital there are many people that get help. Me for one. I don't take any drugs AT ALL and the counseling helps. Not getting counseling is dangerous. Some people actually go off the rails of the crazy train and committ horrific crimes.
Imagine if Timothy McVeigh had been properly diagnosed and treated for his mental disorder. He would have never been allowed to join the military. The propaganda that he read that fueled his anger like the 'Turner Diaries' would have been neutralized. We would have avoided a tragedy.

[Jason Harvestdancer]

This makes me quite uncomfortable.

[SGOS]

I have a wild ass idea.  Instead of trying to get radicals into some sort of psychological program, why not just teach a little psychology in high school.  Being sure to cover propaganda and brainwashing.  Preventive medicine as it were.  I realize, it would be an uphill battle to get such classes into the curriculum, but if they could get these classes through the benefit to society would be great.  

Imagine a world where those needing psychological help knew they needed it and then had access to it.  They could begin treatment before they ended up in the justice system or in a hospital.  It could lower the suicide rate.  People would live better lives by having an a small understanding of why people are doing what they are doing.

Oh well, just a pipe dream.  The radicals and others with private agendas would never allow such a thing.   :(

That assumes the opinions of psychologists are facts, and that they are not mere opinions. And talk therapy may help a person feel good by getting a person to know themselves better, but it has never cured a mental illness, unless you think not knowing yourself is a mental illness.  Solitary

I have to take acception to that. I know for a fact that that counseling has helped a great many people. Take PTSD. At the VA hospital there are many people that get help. Me for one. I don't take any drugs AT ALL and the counseling helps. Not getting counseling is dangerous. Some people actually go off the rails of the crazy train and committ horrific crimes.
Imagine if Timothy McVeigh had been properly diagnosed and treated for his mental disorder. He would have never been allowed to join the military. The propaganda that he read that fueled his anger like the 'Turner Diaries' would have been neutralized. We would have avoided a tragedy.

The terms mental illness, mental disorder, and mental condition are vague.  As Solidary pointed out elsewhere, new ones seem to pop up constantly, and I would add, get reclassified as well, but even simple emotional disorders can get out of hand and cross the line that makes them dangerous.  Now we could debate whether things like harmless delusions are a mental illness or not.  I had an aunt that was institutionalized because she believed some woman would come into her house and rearrange things.  I suspect she imagined other things as well.  She wasn't dangerous, but when you have a delusion that tells you God wants you to kill your children, that's fairly serious. It may or may not be treatable with drugs.  It may or may not be treatable with counseling.  Whether you call it a mental illness or not really doesn't make any difference.  It needs to be dealt with professionally, by whatever means works.

It has been recently fashionable to treat everything with drugs, and I've even heard a few professionals say psychotherapy doesn't work.  I think it's because the medical profession and the pharmaceutical companies have become enamored with recent advances in drug therapy, and some people have a predisposed aversion to psychiatry, psychotherapy, and counseling.  I don't have any objections to drug therapy where it's needed, but I don't think it's a panacea or the solution to everything.  Sometimes, for specific issues, it's the only thing that works.

[SGOS]

This makes me quite uncomfortable.

Step into my office.  I can give you something for that.   :-D