US Military being ignorant as usual.

[Nonsensei]

Bravery is the willingness to risk something valuable to achieve something valuable. When a soldier fights, he is risking his life to achieve victory. But when you think that you can't truly die - that you have an immortal soul that will ascend to eternal paradise when your physical body expires - what you are risking loses significance. Trading what you consider to be an impure, pain filled life for eternal perfect paradise isn't a sacrifice or a risk. Dying in the line of duty becomes an opportunity to, in one shot, earn the right to ascend to heaven and actually do it.

[Shiranu]

But when you think that you can't truly die - that you have an immortal soul that will ascend to eternal paradise when your physical body expires - what you are risking loses significance.

Huh. I'm going to have to ask some soldiers if they think their wife and kids don't have that much significance because they are busy trying to fast track it to heaven. I'm sure they will agree with that statement...

[ZachyFTW]

How did I question motives? I said I didn't want religion in the military because it clouds judgement. If you take that as I am "disrespectful" then I'm sorry you're taking it that way.

[Shiranu]

How did I question motives? I said I didn't want religion in the military because it clouds judgement. If you take that as I am "disrespectful" then I'm sorry you're taking it that way.

It may just be me, but if a person needs justification to be willing to make that sacrifice, then that's not bravery.

I'm assuming you meant motive there when you said justification. If not, my bad.

[Nonsensei]

But when you think that you can't truly die - that you have an immortal soul that will ascend to eternal paradise when your physical body expires - what you are risking loses significance.

Huh. I'm going to have to ask some soldiers if they think their wife and kids don't have that much significance because they are busy trying to fast track it to heaven. I'm sure they will agree with that statement...

Even the concern for family is lessened by the knowledge that they, too, will ascend to heaven.

"Their lives will be harder if I die, but we will all meet again in paradise"

[ZachyFTW]

This might come out wrong because I'm having trouble putting a sentence together to illustrate my argument. If whether or not you believe in an afterlife dictates whether or not you enlist is my problem. Ask the person "If you knew that there was nothing after this world, would you still enlist and risk your life?" If the answer is a truthful Yes then I wouldn't have an issue.

[ZachyFTW]

This might come out wrong because I'm having trouble putting a sentence together to illustrate my argument. If whether or not you believe in an afterlife dictates whether or not you enlist is my problem. Ask the person "If you knew that there was nothing after this world, would you still enlist and risk your life?" If the answer is a truthful Yes then I wouldn't have an issue.

[stromboli]

Courage in battle and motivation to fight for your country are not the same thing. And yes, religion is a powerful motivator to fight for one's country. In the case of going to war with Iraq after 9/11, my son and his unit were powerfully motivated to fight an enemy-based on false premises, it turned out.

Now he is much less inclined to go to war because the reasons for it are far less obvious. After 2 tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan, he readily says that these wars were pointless and unwinnable. Any motivation to go into battle has been rendered essentially meaningless. His motives to go to war were compromised. Without the "X" factor of religion, fighting for a just cause against the evil pagan enemy makes far less sense in the light of understanding.

The 9/11 perpetrators were motivated by religion. To say that they gave up their lives without the sure belief in their own salvation would mean they were nutbags to start with- a possibility, but religion was at the core of their reasons.

[ApostateLois]

Where did Jesus say that his followers were to go to war and fight in foreign countries for political or religious reasons? There is no such command or instruction in the gospels that I can see. Paul, too, was silent on the issue, saying instead that "our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against... spiritual forces of evil..." (Eph. 6:12) He used a lot of war-related analogies--e.g., "put on the armor of God"--but never said that Christians are to go to war.  There are a number of verses in the New Testament indicating that, while one must live IN the world, one is not to be OF the world--that is, a Christian is not to engage in the same behaviors and customs as non-Christians do.  That would surely include fighting in wars that are purely for the benefit of a physical existence, and for the self-aggrandizement of earthly political leaders looking only to obtain more power, money, land, and oil. When Christians whine about their rights being compromised in the military, or about atheists and gays being allowed in, I have to point out that there shouldn't even BE any Christians in the military at all--not if they really are following the Bible! But of course, Christians will go to great lengths explaining why THEY do not have to obey Jesus.

Another thing: It gets complicated when BOTH sides believe they will go to heaven after dying in battle. Do they just keep fighting each other when they get to heaven? What kind of paradise is that? What kind of god would reward people, anyway, for believing that war and mass murder are the only ways to solve problems? Why did he not instead create humans who can solve their differences in more peaceful ways? I guess I shouldn't question the Almighty Creator, though. His ways are higher than mine, and all that crap.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I was in the Air Force from 1989 to 1993, as a firefighter, and I had "atheist" on my dogtags, to no ill effect at all.

Regarding bravery, I was no combat troop, but as  firefighter, we didn't do brave stuff for god or country or any of that crap.  What bravery we did we did because someone needed it done, and we damned sure weren't going to fail in our duty, and thereby force a fellow firedog to assume our risk.  I would have preferred dying to seeing a buddy die in my place. I think combat troops often fight for exactly that reason -- not because they want to kill, but because they would rather die that let down their buddies.

[Shiranu]

Regarding bravery, I was no combat troop, but as firefighter, we didn't do brave stuff for god or country or any of that crap. What bravery we did we did because someone needed it done, and we damned sure weren't going to fail in our duty, and thereby force a fellow firedog to assume our risk. I would have preferred dying to seeing a buddy die in my place. I think combat troops often fight for exactly that reason -- not because they want to kill, but because they would rather die that let down their buddies.

Yeah, I should have expanded on that. I think the reason I gave was more the reason they joined than the reason they are brave on the battlefield/practice.

[stromboli]

I was in the Air Force from 1989 to 1993, as a firefighter, and I had "atheist" on my dogtags, to no ill effect at all.

Regarding bravery, I was no combat troop, but as  firefighter, we didn't do brave stuff for god or country or any of that crap.  What bravery we did we did because someone needed it done, and we damned sure weren't going to fail in our duty, and thereby force a fellow firedog to assume our risk.  I would have preferred dying to seeing a buddy die in my place. I think combat troops often fight for exactly that reason -- not because they want to kill, but because they would rather die that let down their buddies.

Exactly. Anyone who has been in the military understands.

[Jack89]

To be honest, I don't recall every really caring one way or another if a person was spiritual or not.  I can remember serving with Baptists, Buddhists, Muslims and Pagans and it was kind of a secondary thing.  Whatever got you through the night was OK with me and I'm sure it helped quite a few people.
I was a "no religious preference" kind of guy back then, but I would still talk to the chaplain every once in a while.  Not sure exactly why though.  I still have a bible one of them gave to me as a keepsake.

[kilodelta]

There's a little flaw with the article. The linked TECOM Order is a draft.

//http://rockbeyondbelief.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/TECOMO-5100.1.pdf

It's unsigned and undated, thus not in effect. TECOM's Order database does not contain this Order. I spoke with Paul Loebe about it and while he assured me that it's a signed Order, he couldn't provide it. So, if it is signed, it's not distrubed and not in effect.

Another thing is that it's a Order that only applies to a small portion of the Marine Corps. Though the problem is that portion is all the school houses and boot camp... so, potentially, some religitard could filter atheist Marines out before they hit the fleet.

"Lack or loss of spiritual faith" is said to be a risk indicator in the draft document. It needs to be changed. Lack of faith alone is definitately not an indicator. I and many other atheist Marines can attest to this. There may be merit to "loss." As I have read on this forum, new atheists are faced with family and friends that are either not supportive or violently opposed to becoming an atheist.

My recommendation is that they strike the line "Lack or loss of spiritual faith" all together and add a line under "Relationship Problems" such as: "Family conflict or falling out" This would cover those new atheists but point to the actual problem with the family instead of the cause. They can't list all causes to having a falling out with the family... such as even joining the Marines in the first place, but they can point to the problem. What do you all think?

[ZachyFTW]

Why the fuck is there gay porn on this thread?