Morals?

[Pretentious]

This moral obligation seems to suggest I, and every other atheist here should present ourselves to those who would stone us to death.  Guess what?  I ain't gonna do it.

I understand you`re opinion. However, I`m not stating that we should follow the bible in its entirety. I`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD. Morals such as self-sacrifice for other`s gain and being respectful to everyone. Of course, doing these things don`t label you as a follower of christ. Just as a person that isn`t a religious hypocritical mess. You see, Christians try to do it for self gain, in which, counter acts the morality of God as insincerity. We atheists can do it just be actual moral people.

[surly74]

I understand you`re opinion. However, I`m not stating that we should follow the bible in its entirety. I`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD. Morals such as self-sacrifice for other`s gain and being respectful to everyone. Of course, doing these things don`t label you as a follower of christ. Just as a person that isn`t a religious hypocritical mess. You see, Christians try to do it for self gain, in which, counter acts the morality of God as insincerity. We atheists can do it just be actual moral people.

this post makes zero sense.

you are stating people should cherry pick parts of the bible? that already happens.

following morals that should be common sense without a god??? Atheists are already doing this.

[Pretentious]

I understand you`re opinion. However, I`m not stating that we should follow the bible in its entirety. I`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD. Morals such as self-sacrifice for other`s gain and being respectful to everyone. Of course, doing these things don`t label you as a follower of christ. Just as a person that isn`t a religious hypocritical mess. You see, Christians try to do it for self gain, in which, counter acts the morality of God as insincerity. We atheists can do it just be actual moral people.

this post makes zero sense.

you are stating people should cherry pick parts of the bible? that already happens.

following morals that should be common sense without a god??? Atheists are already doing this.

I`m not making this an announcement to smart Atheists like you, I`m stating this for the RADICAL atheists that mistake all morale acts as a label of the bible. YOU know the difference Surley. But believe me, there are Atheists like this that exist.

[surly74]

I`m not making this an announcement to smart Atheists like you, I`m stating this for the RADICAL atheists that mistake all morale acts as a label of the bible. YOU know the difference Surley. But believe me, there are Atheists like this that exist.

whaaaaa????

talk to me if i'm not that smart.

[Jason78]

Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals,

O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

[PickelledEggs]

Morals are somewhat relative.

Is the bible moral? I would say it was possibly more moral for the time and place it was written.... about 2000 years ago. Obviously less now than it was then.

Keep in mind when a religion is formed, it puts it's local culture in the mythology, that's partially why Christianity is so divided even within it's self. There is a countless amount of sub religions all with different morals.

[LikelyToBreak]

Pretentious wrote in part:

I`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD.

Then why do we need the bible or any other holy book?  

It also seems to me, that common sense isn't all that common.  Just consider all of the logical fallacies we all fall into everyday.  And yes, atheists are guilty of logical fallacies too.

Personally, I like Sam Harris's idea of having morals determined using scientific methods.  While I am not entirely clear as to how he thinks this should be done, despite reading his book about it, I do have an idea of how it might be done.  

Scientific method is hypothesis, test, test, test, draw a conclusion, publish, peer review.  Simplified, but general idea.  Say we wanted to define when killing is justified and just plain murder.  The hypothesis would be killing another person is murder, except when the following conditions apply.  We would then use history to determine when killing wasn't considered murder and the ramifications of when it was and wasn't considered murder.  That is the testing portion.  Studying as objectively as possible all of the outcomes of the various cases.  Which by necessity would be limited.  We would draw a conclusion, then publish for the world at large what we concluded.  The world at large, would then study the same cases and tell us where they thought we were wrong or right.  A consensus would then be what we as people would hold as being moral.

Makes more sense to me then cherry picky a two thousand year-old book, then relying on "common sense" to decide something's moral position.  Or allowing the bought and payed for congress to decide.

[PickelledEggs]

Pretentious wrote in part:

I`m saying that we should follow the morals that should be common sense, WITHOUT A GOD.

Then why do we need the bible or any other holy book?  

It also seems to me, that common sense isn't all that common.  Just consider all of the logical fallacies we all fall into everyday.  And yes, atheists are guilty of logical fallacies too.

Personally, I like Sam Harris's idea of having morals determined using scientific methods.  While I am not entirely clear as to how he thinks this should be done, despite reading his book about it, I do have an idea of how it might be done.  

Scientific method is hypothesis, test, test, test, draw a conclusion, publish, peer review.  Simplified, but general idea.  Say we wanted to define when killing is justified and just plain murder.  The hypothesis would be killing another person is murder, except when the following conditions apply.  We would then use history to determine when killing wasn't considered murder and the ramifications of when it was and wasn't considered murder.  That is the testing portion.  Studying as objective as possible all of the outcomes of the various cases.  Which by necessity would be limited.  We would draw a conclusion, then publish for the world at large what we concluded.  The world at large, would then study the same cases and tell us where they thought we were wrong or right.  A consensus would then be what we as people would hold as being moral.

Makes more sense to me then cherry picky a two thousand year-old book, then relying on "common sense" to decide something's moral position.

That is the point. We don't need them. Holy books (with an exception of "though shall not kill") aren't common sense. If you need a book to tell you that you shouldn't kill other people, I don't care if it's 6000 years, 2000 years, 2 years old.... you are an idiot and you are probably retarded or brainwashed (or a combination of the two). It's not common sense now to kill a bird and use it's blood to heal skin disease.

It's called supernatural because it's NOT natural.

[aitm]

I think you should start over, this is going downhill despite your backpedaling. Do not get discouraged, many here hang people before we ask where they are from.

[mykcob4]

Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics, morals, right ways to present your life as an example to others... the list goes on and on. However, the idea of an intelligent creator is simply ridiculous. I`ll go as far as too hear a lesson on kindness from the bible, but I can`t deal with the fact that some of us humans believe in magic. But does that mean we disregard the bible completely? Bill Gates forbid. We should look at the morals and ethics represented in Christianity, and actually USE it.

Feel free to discuss anything you disagree with, I`m up for discussion.
 :-|

NOOOOOO WAAAAAAY! The bible for morals? Get real. Morals, ethics, morays all come from society, not the bible. Letting the theist hijack morals is like letting Hitler decide right and wrong. Oh sure Hitler did some good things, but we shouldn't accept those because you have to accept everything else as a consequence.

[PickelledEggs]

I think you should start over, this is going downhill despite your backpedaling. Do not get discouraged, many here hang people before we ask where they are from.

*Deep breaths*

How are you, Pretentious?  :-D

note: I wasn't mad at you I got worked up from the topic..... plus the massive amount of caffeine I had today from black tea.

[Colanth]

1) Please stop the rainbow.  There's no reason to post in color (especially since at least one of the colors you chose is almost impossible for some people to see without highlighting it).

2) The NT is just as immoral as the OT.  (Things like condoning slavery, condemning cripples.)

2) Not a single good moral in either part of the Bible started in the Bible - it's all restatement of earlier morals.  The Golden Rule, for instance, (which is a terrible rule to follow, but good for its time) is at least as old as Hammurabi (1790 BCE), while organized religion itself goes back about 12,000 years (and maybe more).

So if we totally dismiss the Bible, both OT and NT (neither one is the oldest, the newest, the best - or anything of note), and just choose good morals, we'll do just fine.

[Solitary]

Another question about morality: Who's morality do we follow? What society's or religious groups morality do we follow. There are primitive tribes that still enable any men of the tribe to deflower a girl when she becomes of age and don't have a problem with it. In the Middle East that have moral standards based on religious Scriptures that are anything but moral in my opinion. There are groups of Christian religious sects that think it is perfectly moral to marry 12 year old girls in our own country. And don't forget the abortion foes that like to bomb abortion clinics and kill legal abortionists based on the bible. Solitary

[Eric1958]

Even as a non-believer, I think that there is a lot to learned from the bible. Ethics,  But does that mean we disregard the bible completely? Bill Gates forbid. We should look at the morals and ethics represented in Christianity, and actually USE it.

Feel free to discuss anything you disagree with, I`m up for discussion.
 :-|

Ok, well I feel a little bad, since it seems like we are picking on you a lot already, but here's my shekels worth :

First I have an issue with the idea of mining the bible for the good morality and ethics lessons. My issue is that those morals keep changing from place to place and time to time. For instance 1968 Virginia. A state supreme Court judge uses god to justify keeping interracial marriage illegal. He says god put us on different continents, so he must have meant for us not to mix (darn shame he wasn't around 400 or so years earlier, he could have explained that to those uneducated slave traders).

Today we have the same kind of argument going on about same sex marriage. People who are against it go right to the bible (both old and new testaments) and say "god don't roll that way". People in favor go to jesus and say "he all about we must love one another". In another 20 years most everybody under 70 will say "it's all good" and will find bible passages to confirm that.

In another thread someone posted a youtube video featuring an 11 year old girl who ran away from home because her mom wanted to marry her off. Ok, they were probably Muslim, but they could have been christian and still found justification in the bible. By the way, if you haven't seen it yet you should. This girl should be put straight into law school. Either she is the most articulate 11 year old I have ever seen, or the translator is taking a lot of liberties with the translation.

Anyway my ramblings are trying to convey the idea that the bible gives anybody that wants to enough ammunition to justify either side of way too many positions.

Welcome aboard by the way.

[WitchSabrina]

Welcome to the snake pit.  I'll pray for your survival.


wait


I don't pray.   :rollin:

Just kidding.   As for your premise that we find Good stuff in the bible? erm.......   ok..............  but why would we bother with that?  If we're gonna have to cherry-pick from the bible's pages that which we Can follow and that which we cannot follow - well we're no further along with that book than anyone else.  I'd rather read Huck Finn and garner some humanist skills from its pages myself.  

Anywho - hope you hang around.   As a general rule - if you can abide your first beating here and Not lose your sense of humor - you'll like it here fine.
I was burned at the stake my first couple of days here too.   I gotz me no scars --- here ever since -- Cheers :-D