Intelligent chat with “Religious Answers” groups possible ??

[laocmo]

I've completely given up on trying to hold an intelligent discussion with anyone on the major "Religious Answers" groups. I can not bear the further frustration and keep my composure or sanity.

In answer to my question, why in all the basilicas located in Fatima, Lourdes, etc, all places where miracles happen, are there hundreds of crutches hanging on the walls but no wooden legs? This is a typical answer:

"God heals what you've got. Not what you don't have. You don't have a leg? He's not going to heal it. Sorry. It's gone. You'll get it back with your glorified body at the end."

As to if there has ever been proposed a scientific/psychological reason for the Fatima miracles:

"Miracles of that magnitude obliterate the word impossible, astronomers did not see it, the earth didn't heat up to 800C or thereabouts, even in the neighboring countries nothing was seen and it was a day of regular weather; that's part of the miracle of it; it cannot be explained any other way. What I'm saying I think the miracle was, is that the sun did move from it's fixed relation to the Earth and that it did not, at the same time. The "laws" of physics is the real illusion"

I give up, makes me wanna cry!!

[Mister Agenda]

Nix on the rational discussion, but the simplest explanation for Fatima is that if you stare at the sun too long, your eyes start to twitch involuntarily in a reflexive attempt to save your sght. When that happens it will  seem as if it is the sun that is moving.

[stromboli]

See, you used religious and intelligence in the same sentence. Your first mistake.

[Seabear]

I've completely given up on trying to hold an intelligent discussion with anyone on the major "Religious Answers" groups. I can not bear the further frustration and keep my composure or sanity.

In answer to my question, why in all the basilicas located in Fatima, Lourdes, etc, all places where miracles happen, are there hundreds of crutches hanging on the walls but no wooden legs? This is a typical answer:

"God heals what you've got. Not what you don't have. You don't have a leg? He's not going to heal it. Sorry. It's gone. You'll get it back with your glorified body at the end."

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm

[FrankDK]

> "God heals what you've got. Not what you don't have. You don't have a leg? He's not going to heal it. Sorry. It's gone. You'll get it back with your glorified body at the end."

What kind of pathetic, puny god would need people to make up rationalizations for him?

Matthew 21:22 doesn't say anything about "what you've got," or don't got.  It says you will receive whatsoever you ask for in prayer.  But it doesn't work.

Frank

[stromboli]

I learned upon leaving the Mormon church the futility of debating fundies. Upon presenting evidence, the backup wtf answer was "I won't read that. It'll hurt my testimony." Seriously. I believe, sir, that was the point.

[laocmo]

Anyone ever figure out why the believers are so frustratingly unwilling to listen to cool, level headed logic? Something must make them willing to accept the ridiculous things they accept. At the drop of a hat they will say since God made the laws of logic and physics, He can violate them at will. Even the smart ones avoid answering a simple question by hiding their unwillingness in a thousand word bunch of meaningless verbiage. Even as a child in the 4th grade I began to see the illogicality of some of the things I was required to believe. Now my teachers were not wickedly trying to be deceptive, they were very sincere in their beliefs and some of them were quite saintly. Then I accepted them, now I feel sorry for them which makes me feel very guilty. I read a book once called "When Prophecy Fails" Believe it or not when doomsday did not arrive as their minister had assured them it would, their faith was actually increased! There's got to be someone who has studied all this from a psychological viewpoint. If so I would appreciate a few "read this" suggestions. Thanks

[Hijiri Byakuren]

Anyone ever figure out why the believers are so frustratingly unwilling to listen to cool, level headed logic? Something must make them willing to accept the ridiculous things they accept. At the drop of a hat they will say since God made the laws of logic and physics, He can violate them at will. Even the smart ones avoid answering a simple question by hiding their unwillingness in a thousand word bunch of meaningless verbiage. Even as a child in the 4th grade I began to see the illogicality of some of the things I was required to believe. Now my teachers were not wickedly trying to be deceptive, they were very sincere in their beliefs and some of them were quite saintly. Then I accepted them, now I feel sorry for them which makes me feel very guilty. I read a book once called "When Prophecy Fails" Believe it or not when doomsday did not arrive as their minister had assured them it would, their faith was actually increased! There's got to be someone who has studied all this from a psychological viewpoint. If so I would appreciate a few "read this" suggestions. Thanks

Religion can probably be defined as a "mass delusion." If you do some research on how delusion works, I think you'll understand better how belief in religion can be so ingrained in someone.

[AllPurposeAtheist]

Meh.. I just tell em they're full of shit and go on my way. A preachy type tried to corner me downtown last week. I told him to go stick his babble up his ass and got on a bus. I simply won't bother with them in their foolishness.

[Plu]

Anyone ever figure out why the believers are so frustratingly unwilling to listen to cool, level headed logic?

Their brains are wired to accept the "truth" of god on the lowest possible level; even lower than logic and reason and thinking about stuff. To drop god requires them to basically completely change their way of seeing the world. And people are adverse to change, so they won't.

[laocmo]

"Their brains are wired to accept the "truth" of god on the lowest possible level; ..............To drop god requires them to basically completely change their way of seeing the world. And people are adverse to change, so they won't."

I can't think of anyone more adverse to change than I am. And as I get older I get more so. Yet as I get older I find it more and more impossible to not change my way of seeing the world. They tell me it is the Devil trying to win my soul, that I should accept and not question all that I have learned because it was taught by inspired people who were in turn taught by inspired people, and so on all the way back to Adam.

After I retired and had time to devote to reading ancient history, one of my favorite topics, I was somewhat disturbed to read translations of ancient Indian and Tibetan manuscripts in which there are hundreds of accounts of various holy men, yogis, gurus, (they are called by a variety of names) who routinely did miraculous things. There are accounts of events a thousand or more years before Jesus, that make his miracles seem routine. They calmed the waters, called down storms, cured the sick, multiplied food to feed several, drove out evil spirits, there is even an account of the raising of the dead. One famous master was witnessed to routinely be in several places far from his home, seen by many while never leaving home. Padre Pio is said to have had that ability. The point is, we who have had traditional Christian training have assumed ours is the correct path. All the miracles attributed to our ancient saints have strengthened this belief. Yet history shows that the Indians and Tibetans have as much right to assume that as we do. We are in no way unique in regard to miracles. Read some ancient histories and you will come to the same conclusion. A good place to start is with "Autobiography of a Yogi" In it you will find references to many other ancient texts of great interest.

From all my readings I tend to believe that there is something to the concept of miracle. They insist it is from God, I do not know how to explain it. Stigmata for instance, there are movies showing it in the process of happening. How...I've not a clue but it happens. In my original post to this group I indicated I neither consider myself a theist or an atheist. That still holds. I'm too old to spend my remaining time rehashing all the old arguments for God pro or con. So I will remain a wanderer in the desert. But I'm giving up trying to make sense of the world around me.

So thanks for all your sensible comments and goodbye.

[Plu]

I can't think of anyone more adverse to change than I am. And as I get older I get more so. Yet as I get older I find it more and more impossible to not change my way of seeing the world.

I guess you're not as adverse to change as you're trying to convince yourself you are.

Good luck on your travels. There's plenty of good stuff to see in the world, even if you don't try to make sense of it.