Hitch on the royal family.

[Plu]

To be totally fair, I consider the concept of "born into a wealthy family" just as ridiculous as the concept of royalty. If you really want to believe all men are created equal, you should at least be opposed to a society where some babies have a daddy worth a billion dollars and all the benefits belonging to it as well.

But then, that's exactly the American Dream, I guess.

[Shiranu]

To be totally fair, I consider the concept of "born into a wealthy family" just as ridiculous as the concept of royalty. If you really want to believe all men are created equal, you should at least be opposed to a society where some babies have a daddy worth a billion dollars and all the benefits belonging to it as well.

But then, that's exactly the American Dream, I guess.

All we did was replace "royalty" with "$$$"... which in reality, is the same thing.

And the "All men are created equal" is the biggest farce in human history... we may all be flesh, bone and sinew, but tell me there isn't a difference between the 70 IQ person and the 160 IQ person, or the fellow born into a $500,000 a year income family and a $5,000 a year income family, please. And the guys who came up with that were slave owners who didn't let women out of the kitchen... political suicide as it may have been to do otherwise, that doesn't show alot of conviction in your beliefs.

Does that justify treating people who are "lesser" in whatever category in a negative way? Absolutely not. But to say they were born with equal privileges, capabilities or opportunities is completely contradictory to reality. I realize people who, simply because they were born in a different bracket than me, will be basically handed opportunities that will never be available to me. Likewise there are people who will never have even a 5th of the opportunity I do. We simply were not born as equals.

[Plu]

To be totally fair, I consider the concept of "born into a wealthy family" just as ridiculous as the concept of royalty. If you really want to believe all men are created equal, you should at least be opposed to a society where some babies have a daddy worth a billion dollars and all the benefits belonging to it as well.

But then, that's exactly the American Dream, I guess.

Oh yes, definitely agreed. But there is something different with 'royalty' about official titles, 'being entitled' to some things  by birth etc and they are different than filthy rich people, though they started that way. Plu, read the story please. I want to hear what you think. :rollin: One of my favourites.

I'll see if I can get my hands on a copy of it.

[WitchSabrina]

People are also fascinated by Honey BooBoo.  Need I say more?

[hillbillyatheist]

I'm with y'all on the rich. I'm for a fair egalitarian society. if thats impossible, I'm for mitigating the issues as much as is possible.


as to famous people, I think we all have people we admire because of their accomplishments. nothing wrong with that.

the issue is when it goes too far. putting them on a pedestal or giving them special treatment or taking advice from them that they are not qualified to give.

for instance I like Doc Watson. (RIP). if when he was alive had tried to give me advice on not taking vaccines I'd have laughed in his face. he's no doctor. nor do I think he was the greatest human ever. he was just a guy like you or me, who just happens to have played the guitar very well and sang beautifully on his folk songs. I admire him for that. and I'd like to learn some of his style.

So there's a distinction between royalty and rich kids who did not earn it, and folks who have earned money and prestige by what they've accomplished. but as I say even then there's limits. they still don't need to be put on pedestals above the rest of us or get special treatment.

[WitchSabrina]

I think peasants have always been fascinated by royalty - due to royalty determining how everyone's life goes.   :shock:  To exhibit too much fascination towards royalty only proves one's peasant status.
and for me? No thanks.  I might be the peasant - but I'm not going to willingly admit it.
 :rollin:

[SilentFutility]

Just to be sure we're clear, you do know I do not hate the British, correct?

I hate royalty and I don't care what country it's in,  or how symbolic it is.

The British people are okay by me.

Yeah I get it now, but I wasn't convinced by your analogy, in any case, it's not worth splitting hairs over if the sentiment was not meant to be hateful. I know you're not a bigot anyway.

To be totally fair, I consider the concept of "born into a wealthy family" just as ridiculous as the concept of royalty. If you really want to believe all men are created equal, you should at least be opposed to a society where some babies have a daddy worth a billion dollars and all the benefits belonging to it as well.

But then, that's exactly the American Dream, I guess.

On the other hand, is it right to prevent people from giving their wealth and possessions to their children, or indeed anyone? It is, after all, theirs to do what they want with after they share a portion of it through taxation.

[hillbillyatheist]

in a fair world when people die their stuff would go to who needs it most. all children would have the same access to education, food, housing, etc.

in the real world thats not gonna happen. just like people will continue to let their kids die because some stupid actress thinks vaccines are bad, and people named Windsor will get free money from the british that they did not earn.

life can be depressing.

[youtube:3c7ugt7k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M[/youtube:3c7ugt7k]

[Colanth]

in a fair world when people die their stuff would go to who needs it most. all children would have the same access to education, food, housing, etc.

That's called "communism" (with a small "c").  The only problem with it is that you need only 1 greedy person to turn it into a dictatorship like "Communism" (with a big "C").

[hillbillyatheist]

in a fair world when people die their stuff would go to who needs it most. all children would have the same access to education, food, housing, etc.

That's called "communism" (with a small "c").  The only problem with it is that you need only 1 greedy person to turn it into a dictatorship like "Communism" (with a big "C").

yeah I'm a communist at heart. I realize it doesn't work, and in the real world leads to very bad results, but if it did work as intended or we could find a way to make it work, I'd be all for it.

[Colanth]

Does anyone know a story from the great Ursula Le Guin called "The Royals of Hegn"? (Changing Planes) Please find it and read it, I promise you won't regret it at all. It's a short one too.

You can read it here, if you don't mind all the typos.  Classic Le Guin.

[Seabear]

in a fair world when people die their stuff would go to who needs it most. all children would have the same access to education, food, housing, etc.

That's called "communism" (with a small "c").  The only problem with it is that you need only 1 greedy person to turn it into a dictatorship like "Communism" (with a big "C").

yeah I'm a communist at heart. I realize it doesn't work, and in the real world leads to very bad results, but if it did work as intended or we could find a way to make it work, I'd be all for it.

it's contrary to human nature

[hillbillyatheist]

yeah I know. that sucks, but it is what it is.

[SilentFutility]

in a fair world when people die their stuff would go to who needs it most. all children would have the same access to education, food, housing, etc.

Is it fair though? That's only fair if everyone else who recieves a share in the wealth has pulled their weight equally and worked just as hard.

If I spend several years of my life doing a tough degree, then get a good job that also involves working quite hard and do not live extravagantly and rack up lots of debts buying expensive new cars on finance that I cannot afford etc., instead saving my hard-earned cash and investing it wisely, having already paid lots of tax on my earnings from working hard, why can I not do what I want with what is left over? Is that actually fair? I know what you're saying, "only to people who need it most", not all, but *some* people who are in difficult financial situations or are less wealthy than average have completely brought it upon themselves. If I work hard my whole life, doing education which quite frankly is right on the limit of what I'm capable of and is as a result quite stressful, then working hard at a difficult job my whole life, why does someone who spent most of their life doing hardly anything deserve my earnings over my own children, especially as a huge proportion of my earnings will have already been redistributed, along with again a significant proportion of the rest of my earnings that I spent also being taxed?

I completely get what you're saying, all children should be born equal, and I also understand that you are not naive enough to think that this is completely, 100% possible in the real world, but it is important to remember that not all parents are equal. I feel extremely sorry for children born to shitty, waste of life loser parents who pop out loads of kids without even giving it a second thought, and I think society should do everything it can to help them, but I absolutely do not feel sorry for the parents.

[hillbillyatheist]

well in my fantasy world people would work for the benifit of mankind, not their own gain. I make good music not for prestige and money but to add to culture. a doctor works to save lives, not to make money.

now I realize I'm dreaming and it ain't gonna happen. humans are basically selfish, which is why capitalism works better than communism. it works best because it makes everybody doing things for their own selfish gain benefit others anyway.


then the government comes along to play referee to keep crookedness to a minimum and help those who fall between the cracks.

its the best we can hope for. at least tax the rich enough to make sure poor people can get healthcare, food, shelter and that a good education is accessible to all.

a kind of mixing of socialism and capitalism.