I need some atheist opinions

[laocmo]

I don't consider myself an atheist or a theist. I'm just a lost wanderer in the wilderness trying to make some sense of the world around me. And so far without much success. And I need some atheist opinions here.

I recently posed to two different and unrelated theist discussion groups a question that has bugged me for lack of any  answer for many years. To them it was posed as follows:

Assumptions: God exists, God knows everything that ever was, is now, and will be in the future. God can communicate with His human creations. And finally that I have free will to make decisions as I want, and to change my mind as to whether or not I will do some doable thing, now or in the future.

To these they all agree. Now the questions:

Does God know something I will do in the future, such as go to Heaven or Hell. They answer yes.

Could God write this knowledge down? Most say of course he could. A couple say yes but he wouldn't. A few even said God doesn't have hands!

Could I read what he has written down? Here they either become evasive or give me a thousand word essay on things they seem to have memorized in some religion class.

Then if I know where He says I will go, if He said Hell, could I not either immediately reform my life and attain Heaven? Or if he said Heaven, could I not become of my own free will a vicious mass murderer, then quickly commit suicide unrepentant and go to Hell.

I think this string of questions tends to show that either God does not know all future events, or I do not have free will
The best answer they seem to come up with is that although my logic may be correct, God is above and beyond logic, that He does not have to play according to the human laws of logic. Apparently he makes His own rules.

Any serious opinions? Thanks

[Plu]

You figured it out :) It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.

It's impossible to be the final arbiter over your own actions if somebody else knows what you're doing and has the power to stop you; everything you do is then by the grace of that person allowing it. And it's even more impossible to be able to decide for yourself if someone else already knows what's going to happen; that would require them to know what you're going to do before you do, which means you aren't freely deciding to do it anymore; you're doing something predestined.

(Omnipotence itself is also impossible, as demonstrated by the simple paradox: "Could god create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?".)

And obviously they will come up with "god is beyond logic", because that's their default answer to anyone pointing out a situation that is clearly logically impossible. It's a cop-out non-answer. Just remember whenever someone gives you an answer to a question: if that answer can be used on literally any question askable, it's not actually an answer at all. All answers must narrow down possibilities to have any kind of usefulness. As soon as someone refuses to give you an answer that narrows things down, it shows he doesn't know what he's talking about (and trying to hide that fact, or he'd just have said "I don't know").

[ZachyFTW]

God as we humans know it cannot exist. It defies all logic and is utterly impossible. Your question is a good one for Religious groups that pull answers frequently from their rectum's. Here though, most of us don't believe in God so it is quite hard for me at least to answer your questions that are about what he would do.

[josephpalazzo]

All this is resolved if you see God as a fictional character.

 

[StupidWiz]

You figured it out :) It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.

It's impossible to be the final arbiter over your own actions if somebody else knows what you're doing and has the power to stop you; everything you do is then by the grace of that person allowing it. And it's even more impossible to be able to decide for yourself if someone else already knows what's going to happen; that would require them to know what you're going to do before you do, which means you aren't freely deciding to do it anymore; you're doing something predestined.

(Omnipotence itself is also impossible, as demonstrated by the simple paradox: "Could god create a rock so heavy that even he cannot lift it?".)

And obviously they will come up with "god is beyond logic", because that's their default answer to anyone pointing out a situation that is clearly logically impossible. It's a cop-out non-answer. Just remember whenever someone gives you an answer to a question: if that answer can be used on literally any question askable, it's not actually an answer at all. All answers must narrow down possibilities to have any kind of usefulness. As soon as someone refuses to give you an answer that narrows things down, it shows he doesn't know what he's talking about (and trying to hide that fact, or he'd just have said "I don't know").

Agreed. And that paradox, I had told that to a few of my irl friends and they all just said "We humans can never understand the way God works."  :roll:

[the_antithesis]

A better question to ask is "What's a god?" They have no answer.

[mykcob4]

Ah you have finally stopped your aimless wandering and reached the impass that everyone should reach. A god cannot exist because there is absolutely no reason for it to exist. If we have free will then there is no need for a god. If we don't have free will then there is no need for us to exist. Since we exist there can be no god.

[Poison Tree]

You have hit upon on of many tenants of religion (at least many religions) that makes no scene and the fact that the best answers anyone can give you is, in essence, tossing word-salad at you in the hope that something will stick betrays that the position is indefensible.

I've heard some real head-scratchers as explanations--but ones that appear satisfactory if you just accept what the pastor says and never bother to think or examine--god said it i believe it that settles it; just keep repeating it till you believe it . I was once told that god knows all your possible future choices, just not which one you will chose. When I asked, "So god doesn't know what I'm going to do in the future?" I was told "no, god knows what you will do, just not which what you'll choose". If you can make heads or tails out of that your a better philosopher than me.

Of course, if we accept (for the sake of argument) that the bible is an accurate description, god does not appear particularly concerned about free will. Pharaoh, Paul/Saul, Balaam, all the people is Sodom and Gomorrah, ect. I've had people try to explain that away by saying people forfeit their free will when they disobey god, which sounds to me like "you can have a car painted any colour you want, so long as it is black". If you are only allowed free will as long as you make 1 choice only, you don't actually have free will.

Now, predestination or some type of entirely non-interventionist god or a god with limited knowledge may (I do stress may) avoid this problem of free will and godly foreknowledge, but I'm not even convinced of that.

[Jason78]

You figured it out :) It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.

Depends on how you look at it I guess.   If I could see every possible future for you, but I intervened and showed you your actual future, you could see yourself move through that timeline with the knowledge I was giving you.  You'd make every choice with free will, but your path and destination would be the same.

What'll really bake your noodle later is the question, would you have still taken that path if I hadn't shown you what was going to happen?

[Plu]

But if you intervene and show me my future, and I decide to take a different path? You'd have made the wrong prediction. You'd have to know I'd do something different from what I was shown. Which means you didn't predict the correct future. In fact, cannot predict the right future because I will take a different path just out of stubborness.

If I have free will, you can't tell me my future, because I can (and will) take a different path just to piss you off.

[stromboli]

Assumptions: God exists, God knows everything that ever was, is now, and will be in the future. God can communicate with His human creations. And finally that I have free will to make decisions as I want, and to change my mind as to whether or not I will do some doable thing, now or in the future.

To start with, you are basing the argument on an unproven assumption. There is no evidence that supports this.
As to predetermination- yes. An all powerful all knowing god would know your future and your destiny. That being the case, any action you take is one already determined. God would know if you are bound for heaven or hell, which totally negates free will. So any action you take is known and predetermined. So if your penchant is to party on, have at it.  :-D

In reality, assuming no God, true free will is questionable; we are all influenced by our genetic makeup, our environment, our history and so on. So to believe that there is true free will is problematic and an entire debate by itself.

From my standpoint, doing what I do amounts to free agency because I choose to, nothing more. With absence of any evidence to support your first assumption, I feel no obligation to adhere to any ethos simply out of fear of punishment. So, like I said, party on.

[Johan]

Apparently he makes His own rules.

Most theists do that as well.

[Sleeper]

Omnipotence:

[youtube:3uxw60v2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEizq6iK_zA[/youtube:3uxw60v2]

Omniscience:

[youtube:3uxw60v2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vauFcJAnnTY[/youtube:3uxw60v2]

[aitm]

Assumptions: God exists,

correction; Many Gods exist........or none. You cannot find ample evidence for one or two or a hundred, yet you find evidence for none.

[FrankDK]

> It's impossible for free will to exist at the same time as omnipotence/omniscience.

Not true, provided the god lies.  Since we know the god of the Bible lies (he lied to Adam - "You will surely die this day") it is entirely possible that this same god could know the future, but lie to a supplicant.

Frank