Was Jesus' father a Roman soldier named Pantera?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So then what was the purpose of bringing up the Council of Nicaea - what about it is supporting evidence of Jesus being made-up?

One was documented, one was not.

[Shiranu]

One was documented, one was not.

We have the contemporary works of Jewish slave Josephus and highly regarded historian Tacitus, several Roman officials, as well as references to his sect of Jews in Rabbinic literature all citing his existence within his disciples lifetime; and the lifetimes of anyone who would have witnessed such events - they mention him only in passing, as one of those, "Oh yeah... I heard about that weirdo. Strange people." sort of ways, or out right hostilely in some of the rabbinic responses to what they saw as heretical apocalyptic and Gentiles cosplaying as Jews. I doubt Jewish Rabbis and slaves were in on the Roman plot to fabricate him from nothing.

Of course an event held by the emperor of the largest and most prestigious empire in the world (even during the end of collapse/reincarnation) with the intention to seize control once-and-for-all of Christendom for the himself and future Roman emperors would be more well recorded than a prophet in a somewhat rural backwater of the empire as it was just starting to collapse - the region literally was full of cults like Christianity at this time, as it was a fertile meeting ground of cultures and a some-what convenient stop in the Egypt leg of the international Eruo-Asian trade routes.

So again - to say one is documented, one was not is simply incorrect.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

quibble

[Cassia]

It is incredible how not one shred of hard evidence points to the existence of anything spiritual (aka "the supernatural) even though we have so many differing religious texts and so many people that believe they are true. People also believe the earth is flat, Donald Trump is still the acting president, and Covid vaccines have microchips. Belief is nothing to truth. And yet here we are with hundreds of stories about how gods, angels and demons interact with the physical world.

Just because scriptures can't avoid name-dropping real places and people, this does not mean we can trust any of it. These were never intended to be historical records. And finally, now that 100% of all Biblical scholars are not faithful, we are finding out about the many later-dated forgeries and the real nature of these texts. They are ideological documents that have political goals and can only be used to tell us about the psychology of the creators.

Hard science has blown all that bullshit off a century and a half ago. Not even worth seriously studying. Peoples' heads are full of shit. I mean how hard is it to figure out Putin, Trump, and Musk are complete assholes. Yet they are literally worshiped my millions of disgusting human beings. Often the same ones who believe in Noah's Ark, Zombie Jesus and "Try that in a small town".

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Hard science is hard, people are soft." It won't get any better, as people advance the brightest minds will still be well ahead of the mob. My IQ is 128 but I felt like a moron around some of the people at Purdue. ("Home of the Astronaut!")

[Shiranu]

quibble

Yes, evidence he was a historical figure is utterly trivial to the question of if he was a historical figure.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Yes, evidence he was a historical figure is utterly trivial to the question of if he was a historical figure.

LOL

[Shiranu]

LOL

Grow up.

[Shiranu]

It is incredible how not one shred of hard evidence points to the existence of anything spiritual (aka "the supernatural) even though we have so many differing religious texts and so many people that believe they are true.

We have plenty of evidence, you simply use the wrong tools and graphs for studying and interpreting it.

Sit down, focus on your breathing; relax and notice as the air rides across the curves of your nostril, as it makes it way into the tunnels that lead to your lungs. Hold it. Release, at a slow and steady pace through your nostrils, feeling your exhale.

Do this for 5 minutes - study a text like a poem or paragraph you enjoy, an article you were reading. Envision it.

People also believe the earth is flat, Donald Trump is still the acting president, and Covid vaccines have microchips. Belief is nothing to truth. And yet here we are with hundreds of stories about how gods, angels and demons interact with the physical world.

People also believe that evolution is justification for eugenics, Neil Degrasse Tyson is still telling uni students that philosophy and history are a waste, and rampant scientific progress has brought us to the edge of complete extinction.

We have billions of oil pumps, cars, coal factories, heavy metal industry, toxic chemicals interacting with our physical world in the name of progress; interacting in a way that destroys everything beautiful in the world for our comfort. We have Nazi and Japanese scientists who were just "experimenting" when they flash-froze body parts to test how grenades damaged frozen flesh or how a child's flesh responds to a bayonet.

Let's not pretend that science has some moral high-ground over *any* other field.

Hard science has blown all that bullshit off a century and a half ago.

It really didn't, and way too much harm has been done in science and "progresses" name since we convinced ourselves it did.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Grow up.

Why? It's lonely up there with nobody around. Haven't you been getting the reports?

[Shiranu]

No reason, have at it.

[Cassia]

We have plenty of evidence, you simply use the wrong tools and graphs for studying and interpreting it.

Sit down, focus on your breathing; relax and notice as the air rides across the curves of your nostril, as it makes it way into the tunnels that lead to your lungs. Hold it. Release, at a slow and steady pace through your nostrils, feeling your exhale.

Do this for 5 minutes - study a text like a poem or paragraph you enjoy, an article you were reading. Envision it.

Beauty, art, music and meditation have nothing to do with anything supernatural. The psychological effect is based on symmetry/asymmetry, frequencies and their harmonics, tension and resolution and our perception. Religions have usurped the power of art and music and misused them as tools. Get someone in an altered state it is easier to sell them nonsense.

People also believe that evolution is justification for eugenics, Neil Degrasse Tyson is still telling uni students that philosophy and history are a waste, and rampant scientific progress has brought us to the edge of complete extinction.

Homo Sapiens in a physically incapable species. No fangs, no claws, no armor, no wings. We would have been extinct long ago if not for technological mastery. We are so successful in fact that we are exceeding the capabilities of our planet to support us. Crying won't help and praying won't do you no good. Philosophical ideologies, like religions often just lead to war. Face it, history and philosophy fail, we keep making the same mistakes.

We have billions of oil pumps, cars, coal factories, heavy metal industry, toxic chemicals interacting with our physical world in the name of progress; interacting in a way that destroys everything beautiful in the world for our comfort. We have Nazi and Japanese scientists who were just "experimenting" when they flash-froze body parts to test how grenades damaged frozen flesh or how a child's flesh responds to a bayonet.

Again, a product of our success. None of this is directly attributable to science. But we will need it to find solutions.  BTW, the Japanese with a baby on their bayonet believed their emperor was a god and the Nazis had "Gott mit uns" on their belt buckles.

Let's not pretend that science has some moral high-ground over *any* other field.

Are you saying that the scriptures are a better source for morality than rational analysis? The scriptures have been used to justify the whole gamut of human atrocities. We know they are atrocities because we can analyze them. And it says we are "evil" from the get-go. What a fine thing to teach children.

[Shiranu]

Beauty, art, music and meditation have nothing to do with anything supernatural. The psychological effect is based on symmetry/asymmetry, frequencies and their harmonics, tension and resolution and our perception.

They may not have anything to do with the supernatural, but they have everything to do with the spiritual as you originally claimed; case in point, everything you mentioned.

I would likewise contend that you have only proven that they work within the realm of the supernatural, because the psychological effects of beauty & meditation still operate within a system we do not fundamentally understand; the consciousness.

We understand very important aspects of it, certainly; how physical stimuli can change it's perception of reality - but understanding the tides does not illuminate the sea.

Homo Sapiens in a physically incapable species. No fangs, no claws, no armor, no wings. We would have been extinct long ago if not for technological mastery. We are so successful in fact that we are exceeding the capabilities of our planet to support us. Crying won't help and praying won't do you no good. Philosophical ideologies, like religions often just lead to war. Face it, history and philosophy fail, we keep making the same mistakes.

Technological mastery is fine; there is plenty of technology that we truly have mastered, especially in the fields of machinery - I am criticizing toddlers being given jackhammers and blowtorches. 

What you call success I call our ultimate failure; the ability to drive full speed into oblivion is not a metric of "success" by any metric I am comfortable with.

Again, a product of our success. None of this is directly attributable to science.

A tool is not responsible for the crimes committed by its user's improper use?

Are you saying that the scriptures are a better source for morality than rational analysis? The scriptures have been used to justify the whole gamut of human atrocities. We know they are atrocities because we can analyze them. And it says we are "evil" from the get-go. What a fine thing to teach children. 

Firstly, I'll get the most obvious out of the way...

*Science has been used to justify the whole gamut of human atrocities, I can't believe we are going to sit here and with a straight face pretend that "it made people do evil things" is a valid argument.*

Perhaps *you* can rationally analyze morality, but the simple truth is people are fucking stupid and cant - we have to look at 0.00000001 seconds of social media to realize this is reality.

How do you "rationally analyze" any given situation as being moral?

For example...

I am walking in the woods - along my path I see a stranger with his wallet; it is bulging with $100 bills. He is oblivious to me, and I am capable of silently approaching him, slitting his throat and hiding his body where it will never be found.

I do not care about his family, I do not care about his friends, I don't know him, I'll be 50 miles away by sunset - I just want easy money. There is 0% risk and 100% reward.

What "rationally" makes my action evil? Because I will feel bad? I'm a psychopath, baby, I don't feel that. Does that make me evil? Because I was born different than you? Is that rational?

And before you scoff at this "ridiculous scenario," we both know damn well there are more than a few youth (and adults...) who legitimately do think this way... and it seems to be a growing crowd.

Whatever benefits "rationalism" provides, in it's modern form it is falling into the exact same pit that religion fell into - and behaving the exact same as it falls. It is a joke of what it use to stand for and is largely as dogmatic as the theistic institutions it claims to be so fundamentally opposed to.

We are along way away from the Enlightened Philosophers, Men of Science, and Gentlemen of Europe - the last Golden Age of scientists we had was largely Jewish and Christian minorities of African/Hispanic descent in the 1960s-1980s and of Catholic scientific thought in the late 1800s-very early 1900s... both, again, lead overwhelmingly by scientists who kept their cultural theism as a point of pride amongst themselves, not of conflict.

[the_antithesis]

A tool is not responsible for the crimes committed by its user's improper use?

If a woman drowns her child in a bathtub, who should go to prison? The water or the bathtub?

[Cassia]

We are along way away from the Enlightened Philosophers, Men of Science, and Gentlemen of Europe - the last Golden Age of scientists we had was largely Jewish and Christian minorities of African/Hispanic descent in the 1960s-1980s and of Catholic scientific thought in the late 1800s-very early 1900s... both, again, lead overwhelmingly by scientists who kept their cultural theism as a point of pride amongst themselves, not of conflict.

And yet the enlightenment itself was spurred on by shedding the religiosity of the Dark Ages. The leading thinkers, many who were deists or atheists, risked their very lives or jail. Only took the Catholic Church 350 years too apologize to Galileo who was forced to recant his own scientific findings as "abjured, cursed and detested," a renunciation that caused him great personal anguish but which saved him from being burned at the stake.

If you don't mind, I have a question: Do you believe any of the claims made in the various religious texts concerning direct and specific interaction of our physical world with the supernatural are true? Did Mohammed fly to heaven on a winged horse? Did Hanuman the monkey god receive some sacred pudding to be shared by his three wives, leading to the births of Rama, Lakshmana, Bharata and Shatrughna. Did the Jewish/Canaanite god part the Red Sea for Moses? If you do believe, the next logical question would be what is your criteria for belief in these interactions?

If you don't believe and just defending or selecting one of the hundreds of varying cultures of deluded ancients over an attempted rational method of determining the best path forward, as flawed as it may be, well then, I don't understand that. Women and slaves as property, god-sanctioned genocides, persecution of homosexuals, passing one's moral responsibility onto a human sacrifice, and birth into mortal sin are not things I think we should hang on to. Are these your values?